Debunking Unconditional Eternal Security: John 15:1-6

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. vooks

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    Scriptures clearly teach that believers can commit apostasy( John 15:1-6,Romans 11:18-23, Hebrews 6:4-8,10:26-39,2 Peter 2:20-22). I have examined Hebrews 10:39 and amply demonstrated that contrary to Unconditional Eternal Security heretics, the verse teaches the opposite; believers can turn into apostates and objects of the wrath of God.

    As I said, this is an uncomfortable truth, but truth is never based on comfort. We must follow it wherever it leads us. The subject portion is important because it records the very words of our Master addressing his disciples.

    John 15:1-6 (KJV)
    I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
    .
     
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  2. vooks

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    First,
    Note that Jesus is addressing his disciples who are 'in him'. They are clean(v3) and are attached to the vine(v5), meaning they have life because they are attached to the source of life. So these are saved individuals. I mean if somebody is in Christ, clean, and attached to the vine the source of life, they can only born again.

    Jesus is teaching them the importance of abiding or remaining in him. He is not asking them to join Him but to remain or continue in him....to continue in their present state. Branches must continue in Him if they are to continue enjoying the life flowing from Him.

    The believer, by faith, remains in Christ, and they continue producing fruit of faith and life as long as they are in Christ
     
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  3. vooks

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    Secondly,
    When a branch ceases to remain/abide by faith as evidenced by unfruitfulness, it is cut off.

    This is a vivid depiction of apostasy.
    The apostate is not somebody who was never in the vine but somebody who did not abide in the vine. They never continued, they never remained.

    So in this passage, the subject are not people who have never been in Him,nor is this he 'visible church', but those who ARE in the true vine, in Christ. Branches in the true vine can only be believers.

    It is true that the branch cut off is an unbeliever. Even Calvin clearly saw this, but this is subtle digression. Nobody disputes this. The more relevant question and point to ponder is whether the cut off branch was a believer previously attached to the True Vine.

    Thidly, the cut off branch withers. Withering means it had life before but it no longer has
     
    #3 vooks, Mar 1, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
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  4. vooks

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    I hope by now you can see the dilemma of OSAS heretics. They claim once in Christ, you can't fall off because He will keep you bla de bla. But here we have those in Christ and they are being exhorted to REMAIN lest they be cut off.

    The heretics don't submit to the truth without a fight. They will fight such obvious truths. How do they go about it? By redefining branches.

    Let's start with Calvin
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom35.v.i.html
    So according to Calvin, the ones bearing no fruit are a mere ILLUSION. They appear to men to be branches but they are no branches.

    Now this is plain dumb because Jesus is not talking about the opinions of men but realities!:)

    Calvin, it is not 'every branch 'in' me, according to the opinion of men..' But rather ' every branch IN ME...'
     
    #4 vooks, Mar 1, 2016
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  5. vooks

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    https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/ntesources/ntarticles/gtj-nt/smith-john15-gtj.pdf


    When I read such statements I laugh in tongues.
    First, what is it with the passage that demands 'harmonization'?
    The answer is obvious, the passage smashes the idols of OSAS, and instead of accepting the truth of God, it has to be twisted no contorted beyond measure to conform it to preexisitng biases.

    Secondly, the standard defense whenever OSAS is confronted is that there are other passages elsewhere that 'clearly teach opposite' of whatever you are saying. It is also clear that there is zero attempt at refuting the Loss of salvation evidently read from the passage by say Arminians. They just say the interpretation conflicts 'other clear teachings elsewhere'. Makes you wonder whether there is any ambiguity in the subject verses.

    Thirdly, note the defensive statement that. It is not dishonest...', did somebody say it was dishonest? Nobody accuses them but their own conscience

    When will we learn to let scriptures speak to us? This is no exegesis but Eisegesis. It is a determination to obscure the truth by whatever means possible. When studying eternal security, it is highly unwise to take a position as a given. But this is exactly what they do.

    I strongly suggest an honest examination of the counterarguments presented on this document. Before you are halfway done, it will be clear that the attempt at 'harmonization' is anything but honest.
     
    #5 vooks, Mar 1, 2016
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  6. vooks

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    @Iconoclast,
    I note you have disagreed with all the posts and also disliked them. I wish you would take some time and explain exactly why you disagree and dislike what I wrote.

    God bless
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Vooks

    If you understand the Covenant of Redemption you would be asking different questions
     
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  8. vooks

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    John 15:2 (KJV)
    Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit
    .

    There is an argument I have come across that can be broken down thus;
    1. Every believer MUST produce fruit
    2. The branches cast off from v2 do not bear any fruit

    Conclusion
    The unfruitful branches are unbelievers,......'professing unbelievers' IN CHRIST. They can't possibly be believers for if they were, they'd producing fruit.

    To this I respond that, it is true the cast off branches are unfruitful, but this does not negate the possibility that they were once fruitful or had fruit in the past. It only means PRESENTLY they have no fruit.

    To support this point, let us focus on the branches that are cast off
    1. The cast off branches are the unfruitful ones-v2
    2. The cast off branches abide not in Christ - v6


    And finally,
    3. Abiding branches bring forth fruit...they are fruitful-v5

    CONCLUSION
    Unfruitfulness is a consequence of not abiding, and while one abides they bear fruit and this ceases when they stop abiding.

    The whole point of the passage is to encourage the disciples to abide, to remain in Christ. This would be pretty irrelevant if they can't but abide and bear fruit. But there is the risk of failure to abide resulting into unfruitfulness and casting away, withering and being cast into fire.
     
    #8 vooks, Mar 1, 2016
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  9. vooks

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    My favorite verse;
    Proverbs 17:28 (KJV)
    Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise:
    and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding
    .
     
  10. vooks

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    Jesus is telling the disciples to remain in Him.
    He vividly describes the fiery consequences of failure to abide in him namely no fruit, casting away, withering and burning. Obviously this is a warning with an incentive (in this case being avoiding being cut off).

    Why would Jesus warn them over something they'd never do?
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

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    First of all, you should not be calling people who disagree with you, heretics, especially since in your case it is the pot calling the kettle black.

    Secondly, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. You need to deal with texts like John 10:26-30 and 1 John 2:19. Also, 'The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' (Romans 11:29). It is not possible that one can be a new creation in Christ Jesus one moment, then revert to being an old creation, and then perhaps be a new creation again. Nor can one be in Christ and out again and then back in like a yo-yo.

    OSAS is clearly wrong, but at the same time God's saints will persevere to the end.
     
  12. vooks

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    It is not those disagreeing with me who are heretics but those who oppose scriptures

    You'd need to demonstrate how any of these scriptures 'contradict' with my understanding of the scriptures just shared
    Very true but some are conditional. Those who perished in the wilderness are a perfect example
    Salvation is conditional. Received by faith, maintained by faith.

    This is contradictory as you can get.

    Do you consider yourself as one of those saints of God who will persevere to the end?
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

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    As I said, the pot calls the kettle black.

    Read them again for yourself and you will see. If there's something you don't understand, I'll be happy to explain.

    They proved themselves not to be God's true people. The Old Covenant was conditional; the New is not. Compare Exodus 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10.

    Given by grace; maintained by grace. Received by faith which is the gift of God.
    Only to you, because you do not understand.

    I trust in Christ to keep me until the end. I certainly don't trust in myself to achieve that.
     
  14. vooks

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    Ok
    I have the scriptures with me, what I don't understand is how you think they contradict any of what I said. Explain that
    The NEW is conditioned on FAITH without which it is impossible to please God
    Which means the havenots who end up in hell were NEVER given no faith to receive salvation which is given by grace,right?

    Indulge me...teach me Rabbi
    And on the basis of this trust, can you say you will never apostasize?
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

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    OK.
    Step 1. John 10:11. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." So Christ has died for His sheep.
    Step 2. v.14. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own." So not only does the Shepherd know His sheep, but His sheep know Him.
    Step 3. v.26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." People do not cease to be our Lord's sheep because they do not believe; their unbelief shows them not to be His sheep at all.
    Step 4. v.27. "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me." Our Lord's sheep are a special breed. They may be distinguished from other breeds by their ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow Him.
    Step 5. v28. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29) as I said before. One of Christ's sheep may become lost for a time, but he will never evolve into a goat.

    So, what do we say about those who make a Christian profession and then depart from it? They prove themselves not to be Christ's sheep. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest [plain, obvious] that none of them were of us' (1 John 2:19).
    The New Covenant is conditioned on GRACE. Faith, without which it is indeed impossible to please God, is a gift of God.
    The Lord Jesus says, "The one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). No one has been up to heaven to have a look at the Book of Life and seen his name missing there. Anyone who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith will not be turned away.
    Certainly. The idea that anyone who has raised his hand or gone to the front or mumbled a sinner's prayer is saved for eternity is false. But those who come to Christ, as I've said, in true repentance and faith, seeing himself as a poor lost sinner whom God would be perfectly just to cast into hell- that one is one of Christ's sheep and shall never be cast out. But such a one will show himself to be of Christ's flock by heeding the voice of the Shepherd and continuing to follow Him.
    Not on the basis of my goodness, but on the basis of God's word and His mercy to sinners. 'He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.'[/QUOTE]
     
    #15 Martin Marprelate, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  16. vooks

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    Ok
    Ok
    Really?

    It seems then the only test of a sheep is continuity of belief till He returns or calls you home, is this so?

    May I presume that [email protected] Marprelate are still believing in Jesus so you regard yourself as part of His sheep?

    Ok
    The recipients of life are those hearing and following. Question is, do they still remain sheep when they are not hearing nor following?

    Excellent point,
    In other words the only test of a sheep is perseverance of their faith, right?
    But the only way we can tell your faith will persevere is by your death, for you may have persevered 30 years only to 'go out from among us' the next year. During your 30 years of perseverance, you thought you were sheep. And you were sheep seeing you heard his voice and followed. But then in your 31st year you 'went out from among us'. And now that you have gone, we know you were 'not of us'!

    Your interpretation of 1John 2:19 makes apostasy, or 'going out from among us' the marker of a sheep. Sheep NEVER go out while goats go out at some point . What makes you think you are a sheep who will hold on to the end and not a sheep-looking goat that will throw away their faith in future?

    Is this gift of faith available to ALL men?

    Very true,but before they come to Christ in Faith, Christ would have to have given them that faith seeing faith is a gift, right?

    Is this gift of faith available to all men?
     
    #16 vooks, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  17. Revmitchell

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    I am still waiting for the doctrine of eternal security to be debunked.
     
  18. vooks

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    I'm still waiting for a rebuttal or the joke whichever comes first...wait......looks like the joke came firstLaughRoflmao
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

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    Well, were getting somewhere. You agree that Christ did not die for all people, but for His sheep, and that one feature of the sheep is that they know the Shepherd'
    Yes, really. That is the plain meaning of John 10:26. If you want to debate it, deal with the text.
    Why are you obsessed with testing sheep? Do you want to be a vet when you grow up? As for me, I trust in the promises of God.
    Good. You agree that the feature of the Lord's sheep is that they hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him.
    They do not flip-flop between being sheep and being goats. A sheep may become a lost sheep. In that case the good Shepherd will come and find him and bring him home. If the good shepherd doesn't come and find him, the reason can only be that he doesn't belong to the Lord's flock.
    God's people do not have a physical mark or tattoo upon them. 'You will know them by their fruits.'
    Because I trust in the words of God. 'These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life' 91 John 5:13). Now, how do you know you are saved, or are you depending on your good works and hoping for the best?
    The way to heaven is wide open for all who will come. But, '.....This is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil........But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life' (John 3:19; 5:40). If God did not choose some, none would ever be saved, not because God prevents them, but because of their wicked, unbelieving hearts.
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Now this is an intriguing statement.

    Could you elaborate on why "Once Saved Always Saved" is wrong?

    God bless.
     

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