Defending TULIP

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by TCassidy, Apr 16, 2005.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    There has been a lot of empty talk on the forum regarding those who believe in TULIP charging them with not understanding the bible or of being spiritually blind. Several times the TULIP believers have asked the anti-TULIPs to defend their position from scripture but they have not be able to do so resorting, instead, to personal attacks.

    So, in the spirit of being gifted as a pastor/teacher I will present a scriptural defense of TULIP. (Thanks to "The Moorings" for this excellent study which can be found at http://www.themoorings.org/doctrine/issues/Calvinism/daisy.html )

     
  2. TCassidy

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  3. TCassidy

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  4. TCassidy

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  5. TCassidy

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  6. icthus

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    Larry, as you well know, anyone with a good knowledge of Scripture, can counter each of your points. You guys have to keep plugging you stuff and twisting Scripture to teach what you believe in error to be Biblical Truth.
     
  7. icthus

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    I beg you pardon, Larry, its not you here but your side-kick, Butch Cassidy
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Then counter them and then tell us why some people who hear the Gospel are saved while others are not?
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Well Cassidy, if one does just a cursory bit of research we find that Paul in Romans 3:10-13 is quoting David, Psalm 14:1-3. in a psalm (hymn) that is 'titled', "The Fate of the Godless". David is not saying that All mankind is totally depraved, only the Godless.

    If you read all of Psalm 14 you will see that Paul cannot possibly be saying that all mankind is totally depraved
    Poof!!! there goes your "T" as in Totally depraved!
     
  10. whetstone

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    i think you just have this typed into a notepad document and paste it in on every thread written by a calvinist. correct?
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Well sir, you're just gonna have to prove that a grace called "saving grace" exists, I can find none of it in Scripture.
    Well, I certainly agree with you that Paul is one of the elect of God, but He is a very extreme example. How many more instances like Paul can you find in the scriptures?
    Another one of a kind example. There is no evidence of this situation ever happening a second time. This proves absolutely nothing! There have been over 10 Billion humans that have lived on the face of this earth since Adam, so these two examples give us a 2 in 10 Billion sampling of God's "unconditional election". Not very convincing Cassidy! You're gonna have to do better than that!
     
  12. rc

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    The fate of the Godless.... yep ...
    The fate of the totally depraved in other words.

    There is a reason why it IS in the Bible. God does not change. Paul states the examples that God DID give ... why? Because that is a part of His character! That does NOT change! Thus the rest of the chapter of 9 !! God wills people according to His pleasure. Paul begs to differ with you Wes... It only takes ONCE in scripture to solidify a lesson...

    Your silly teaching WEs begs the question... if not one time then how many? You obviously think it's not two... 3,4,5? If God loves, hates, chooses... it's in his unchanging charector... which will govern all of humanity.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Atonement for sin was never intended to be Salvation for the sinner. Nor was it intended to be forgiveness for sin! The Christ's Atonement universally and very efficiently paid the penalty for ALL sin in ALL time. It Did Exactly what God intended for it to do! The Atoner told us that Salvation is through Faith, not by his death. The atoner would have told us that His atonement for sin was forgivness for sin if that were true. But it is not true.

    Atonement is Universal, and complete! A finished work of God!

    POOF!!!! There goes Limited Atonement!
     
  14. gb93433

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    Was God an idiot when he inspired the writer to write John 1:12 and John 3:16?

    Is “belief” an idiot word of no value? Are the commands in scripture lies and exaggerations because people have no choice? Why would God command if He would not enable people to carry out His commands. Or are the commands just for the elect? If the commands are just for the elect then purpose of the book of John and Matthew is a fraud.

    If grace is so irresistible where does that put Judas in his relationship with Jesus?

    Why would anyone pray if all are robots on this earth?

    Why would repentance be needed if all are robots each minute part of the way?

    Why would God be an idiot and call any if they are already chosen?

    Mt. 22:1-14, “Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. "Then he said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Many Calvinists have forgotten the context of Proverbs 26:14 and God being creator too. They have forgotten the Jewish idea of God being creator. The scripture teaches that God created evil too. But that is a far different idea than our Greek philosophy and mindset. The Greek American mindset is very different than the mindset of the Asians too. The idea of God creating evil is the idea that God is creator of all and that includes evil.

    Proverbs 16:4, “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.”

    To say that salvation is predestined slaps God in the face, saying scripture is not inspired and that scripture contradicts itself. Those who are Calvinists cannot believe God according to scripture in every verse that uses the word predestined. They have thrown God out much like trash on the highway.

    All are predestined to His calling, adoption and purpose, not salvation. All are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

    Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

    Roma 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

    Roma 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

    1Cor 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

    Ephe 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

    Ephe 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    I take it by your response, that you simply cannot read, or you reject because it opposes your false doctrine.

    For something to be common to man, it must be common, and you will agree that Paul's experience and God's selection of Jacob over Esau are not common among men....won't you?
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    It looks like you lose Cassidy!
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Those who don't believe that Salvation is simply by the Sovereign Grace of God might make sense if they could answer the question: Why are some people who hear the Gospel saved while others are not?
     
  18. gb93433

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    Hopefully he did not lose but rather God won and got the glory.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    gb93433,
    When proof texts do not pass examination, that which they are proof texts for also fail!

    That's what has happened on this topic! The proof texts fail the test!
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    What you fail to consider rc is that if election is a valid doctrine, there must be sufficient evidence of it's validity and you provide none. As in all major principles of God, It must be common among men in order to be applied among men. You cannot demonstrate that it has been or is being applied among all men.

    Salvation is common among men for there are many who have heard God's word and believe in Jesus and indeed have completely turned their lives over to the Christ. In so doing they have become the elect! 'Faith in God' makes one elect; not 'election makes one have faith in God'.
     

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