Define Lordship Salvation: Your Opportunity

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Jul 25, 2007.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    To Lordship Salvation Advocates:

    You may be aware I am speaking at the Grace Conference on Thursday & Friday of this week. I will be teaching two workshops on Lordship Salvation. I will define and discuss some of the chief components of the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.

    This is really short notice, but I was thinking this evening that it might be helpful to let you, the Lordship advocate, define Lordship Salvation in a way you believe is fair and accurate. I have numerous citations from the well-known advocates of Lordship Salvation. You, however, may have a preferred way of expressing your position, and this is your opportunity.

    You are invited to visit my site and post a brief definition of Lordship Salvation. One or two brief sentences are sufficient.

    I would like to take your definitions, put them on a transparency and show them in my opening workshop. I will not release your name should you choose to use it here. (You can post anonymously) I will not use your definition as a target to mock or ridicule in the workshop. I will simply show the attendees how you, the Lordship advocate, defines his position.

    Sorry to rush you on this, but I just got the idea to ask for your input. This is not meant to be a minefield or a chance to play gotcha with anyone.

    Please go to In Defense of the Gospel, and define Lordship Salvation in your own words. The article and comment thread is the lead piece at my site.

    If you prefer, leave the definition here.

    Thanks,


    Lou Martuneac
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley
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  3. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    One More Example

    No problem, that is just one in a long series of Rick Warren's abuses of the Bible.

    If you want a more complete listing of Warren's egregious philosophy and methods go to my site for the Short Series on Rick Warren.

    Be sure note how one John Brown, former Saddleback staff member and self-styled Rick Warren apologist, tries to defend the indefensible.


    LM
     
  4. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Please define

    Lordship Advocates:

    I would really appreciate your input, please consider and provide a brief definition that you believe accurately defines the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.

    :type: Post it at In Your Words...

    Thanks,


    LM
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Why do you suppose you're having such a hard time getting people to cooperate on this?
     
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Read Dr. John MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus. That's my input.
     
  7. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    I have. In my book I have demonstrated from JM's books, in his own words that he has adopted a works based interpretation of the gospel.


    LM
     
  8. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    It is probably hard for most to define LS in a brief statement. It is not easy.

    Some other LS advocates do not want to be to open and upfront about it. Meaning: They prefer introducing their LS position through subtlety and over time. They employ the false dilemma and other means to demonize any position that falls short of their LS interpretation. This paves the way for an easier sell of LS.

    Not all are like that, but some are and I have dealt with that personally.


    LM
     
  9. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    I have never seen such a thing. who are these "advocates"?
     
  10. Allan

    Allan
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    I think the problem is in the the perspective people take.
    Can a person say: Jesus, be my Saviour but you will not be my God?
    Most people will agree that this type of person is self seeking and not truly desiring a relationship with God, Christ, nor His Spirit. They are not saved.
    Why?
    Because they did not understand so great a salvation given by a Holy and Righteous God. Its about what they can get and not what they have done and what He has done on their behalf.!

    Romans 10:9 states : if you will confess the 'Lord' Jesus and believe with your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. You will be saved.

    Why must a person confess the 'Lord' Jesus and not just saviour Jesus. Because He is the Lord by whos grace we are saved. It is the acknowledgement of truth (of who Christ IS and what He has DONE) that reciprocates in submissive Love. It is the truth that set you free. If you understand who and what Christ has done, you will understand salvation. But you can not understand salvation without acknowledging the very Lord and God who gives it.

    Even Thomos said: My Lord and my God at the moment of his beleif.

    IMO of course.
     
    #10 Allan, Jul 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2007
  11. Martin

    Martin
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    ==John MacArthur does not believe, or teach, that salvation is the result of works (ie...that salvation is payment for deeds). MacArthur does believe that works are a result of salvation (of a changed heart).

    I noticed that you are concerned about Hodges (etc) "cross-less gospel". I am glad you are concerned about that but allow me to ask you a question: Are you really surprised? Look at Zane Hodges' sloppy exegesis and his wild eisigesis and you will quickly understand that he is ready and willing to make Scripture say whatever he wants it to say. The very same thing is true about Bob Wilkin. I consider both of these men to be heretics who are leading people astray. Their new "cross-less gospel" teaching is only them showing who they really are and what they really believe. I predict that folks like Bob Wilkin and Zane Hodges will be teaching universalism within a dozen or so years. These men are theologically and spiritually dangerous. This is why men like Charles Ryrie need to run away from Zane Hodges as fast as they can. Since you are speaking at the same conference as Ryrie maybe you should warn him about these heretics. If someone like Ryrie would stand up and speak out against Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin maybe some of those who have been trapped by their false doctrines would wake up.
     
    #11 Martin, Jul 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2007
  12. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Romans 10: 9

    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

    Put the words LORD JESUS underneath your spiritual microscope and see what you come up with
     
  13. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Martin:

    What MacArthur teaches is that salvation can only be achieved by an upfront promise/commitment to the works of a mature disciple of Christ. No upfront commitments to deny-self, bear the cross, and follow Him no salvation. MacArthur demands a commitment to do the "good works" and without such he cannot be saved. That is a man-centered message that frustrates grace. I have this thoroughly documented in my book and at my blog site. See, for example, John MacArthur's Costly Salvation & John MacArthur's Discipleship Gospel.

    As for Hodges: I am glad noted my attention to this strange, unorthodox teaching on a “crossless gospel.” No, not surprised. I’m not going to attempt to guide Dr. Ryrie on this, I’m sure he is handling it in a way he feels honors the Lord.

    Universalism? Maybe. This I do know, once men start down a path into extremes they usually keep going into deeper error. Hodges and Wilkin have certainly been sliding for some time.

    Keeping checking my site. Two men are going to contribute new articles on the “Crossless gospel.” The first will be mid-next week.


    LM
     
  14. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Already did

    Done that, and 13 pages in my book are on that single verse.

    One irrefutible result is that Rom. 10:9 does NOT support the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel, as defined by men like Dr. MacArthur.

    LM
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I'm surprised by the MacArthur quotes you put on your site. I listened to him on radio for years and never heard anything like that. It's a shame. I am much more in line with Pickering's statement.
     
  16. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Thanks for posting this.


    LM
     
  17. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Its Right There

    You can hear the same on the radio, but very rarely. Plus he revises the way he states some of the things in his books. No as easily caught unless you know what to listen for.

    In his books many miss the things you read at my site because they are not expecting him to be unorthodox, and so they do not read carefully with discernment.

    Most of what is in JM's pro-Lordship books is sound. If, however, you read carefully, the false teaching of LS is right there.

    Dr. Ernest Pickering was very balanced. He was a close personal acquaintance while I was a missionary.

    Now, if you like, read Is Lordship Salvation An "Exchange?"


    LM
     
  18. npetreley

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    What can I say? Assuming all your quotes are accurate (and I have no reason to assume otherwise), MacArthur is promoting a false gospel. I can't help but wonder if it's a self-righteous gut reaction against "easy believism" that leads many people astray.
     
  19. Allan

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    Since I'm not actually sure where I fit into the debate (this is one area I haven't studied all that much about). Would you say I fit the LS mold or something else. Just curious what you think.:thumbs:
     
  20. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Hi:

    The quotes are exact, accurate and in context. No misrepresentation, no Straw Man. MacArthur believes and teaches exaclty what you read in the articles at my blog.

    LS, as defined by MacArthur, is a false gospel, no question about it.

    For many LS is a reaction to the errors in Easy-Believism. The exposure of the latest version of EB, known as the "Crossless" gospel (popularized by Zane Hodges) will bring the LS response back to the forefront.

    LS is an extreme, and out of balance with the biblical plan of salvation.

    Have to go to the Grace Conference, back late tonight.


    LM
     

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