depravity from another angle

"Preach the gospel to every creature"

What is the gospel message?

 

The command is to preach the gospel, and unfortunately, even the gospel being preached at this present time is not the true gospel.

The true gospel is a good news of a finished salvation given not offered to sinners everywhere.

A salvation where God took charge for the sake of His people, not a salvation where the end result is left to the decision of a member of a fallen race, since that decision will always be tainted with the dictates and interests of a fallen nature.

Therefore, the true gospel is the good news of a finished, complete and secure salvation given as a gift by a loving and merciful God to an undeserving creature who ought to be punished instead of spared, ought to be left to his bondage to Satan instead of redeemed.

 

pinobaptist,

Who is right?

You said, 'Except that the creator calls only His people to repentance, not all mankind.'

Luke speaking for Almighty God said, 'He now commandeth all men--everywhere to repent.' [Acts 17:30b]

Who is right? You or the Lord Jesus?

 

And who is right, Ray Berrian, when the Bible says man is totally depraved and unable to do that which is good, including repentance, unless the Creator enables him ?

Jeremiah 13:23 -

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

And is this all mankind ?

Ezekiel 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So, who is right, Ray Berrian ?

You and your false gospel of a falsely represented man ? Or God ?

 

Did God say to go and preach to some, Jews, Greeks, Romans, slaves and free, or did Jesus say in Mark 16:16 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature?'

This kind of silences those who say that Jesus died on the Cross for only His people, more especially when you study I John 2:2 & I Timothy 2:6.

 

If the psychiatrist said to you that your loved one was Totally Insane, you might plan on making weekly visits there for the rest of that persons lifetime.

By the same token, when someone tells you that all sinners are Totally Depraved, there is then no chance that the Lord could ever get through to anyone in so lost a condition.

That is why we say, yes, sinners are depraved but not totally depraved. That is if you want to keep in remembrance that we are created after the likeness of the Lord God, with a mind, will, and emotions. [James 3:9] And notice James lived thousands of years after the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

The Holy Spirit can get through to all sinners to convict and convince them of their sinfulness before holy God. Do I hear an amen?

 

No chance, eh? Wow, what a loser your dad is. My Dad can beat up your dad any day of the week.

 

No chance, eh? Wow, what a loser your dad is. My Dad can beat up your dad any day of the week. </font>[/QUOTE]I think Ray is talking about your daddy.

I think he is referring to the fact that you believe that men are so depraved that even God's chosen means, such as Christ coming to earth, the apostles, the Holy Spirit and the gospel message, are not suffiicient of themselves to bring one to life, but instead God must do an additional inward working that is never revealed to us as a means in the scripture.

 

If the apostles really believed that then why when they were asked, "What must we do to be saved?" Did they tell them, "Repent and believe?" Why didn't they say, "There is nothing you can do, its all been done for you. It is complete and either your saved or your not. If you believe me then it because you are saved?"

Even Calvinists are known to say to evangelize like an Arminian but believe like a Calvinist. Why do some say that? Because they reconize the clear evangelism found in scripture is persuasive in nature and calling for a response of those who hear it. Pb, you are too close to Hyperism which is a dangerous place to be.

 

If the judge was their creator and they were born unable to do anything but love sin while that creator pretended to want them and call them to repentance and faith and then judged them for not responding to His words which the creator never allowed them to even understand or geniunly respond to then, Yes I think that could be a valid excuse for pardon. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe mankind has an excuse.
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

If man has the knowledge of good and evil, does this not make every human born on the planet earth legitimately accountable for his actions? The following would also imply that all have preferred or chosen evil over good. "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3:12)
Therefore, if God chooses to save a limited number of mankind, He would be just in doing so.

 

I know you don't believe they have an excuse but your dogma gives them the perfect excuse, if indeed its true. Having the knowledge of the good and the evil is not what makes them without excuse, its their ability to choose what they know. Your doctrine say that they can't choose to believe God's revelations of himself and the scripture never teaches that.

Only if they are able to act based upon their knowledge.

Yes, I agree that no one is declared righteous by the standards God has revealed in the OT times. Our conscience and the Law bear witness that we all fall short of God's glory. WE ALL AGREE WITH THAT. But read on brother! Verse 21 speaks of a "new righteousness being revealed" which does not come by works but through faith. And by that standard of righteousness men CAN and HAVE been declared righteous. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness." Clearly Romans 3:10 is not speaking about the righteousness that comes through faith otherwise he couldn't say "NNE IS RIGHTEOUS." He is clearly speaking about the fact that no one is righteous according to the standards of works. You have misapplied this verse brother.

I agree. But he never makes such a choice, which scripture makes painfully clear.

 

Aki said:

[

Aki, read these verses very slowly. Chew on them as you would chew on food, very slowly, so you don't choke, get constipated, or throw up.

Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. [/b]

Only one man had true free will, not bound to a corrupt nature, and that is, Adam. He blew it when time came for him to use his choice. He obeyed the creature, rather than the creator. From then on, his posterity was with corrupted nature. They sin because of that, not in spite of that. You keep talking as if you want to put the blame on God for the non-elect's sinning.

Only one man, obeyed God to the fullest, and exercised His choices in complete submission to God, and that was the man Christ Jesus, therefore, in Him , the elect are deemed justified before God, and counted as if they never sinned.

 

Brother Aki:

Greetings.

BROTHER AKI SAID:herein is the point that i would like to focus.
two things must be considered:

1. everyone is born condemned. nobody's volition is respected in this regard. this is due to Adam's sin being imputed on everyone. thus, nobody caused his own condemnation, but are actually sovereignly born with it.

2. it is impossible for anyone not to sin. this is due to the sin nature inherent in everyone. again, nobody chose to have such nature.


MY REPLY (BROTHER JOE):Brother Aki, Being born condemned via the sin of Adam IS fair. How so? God choose Adam as a PERFECT REPRESENTATIVE for the human race. And as God is both fair and accurate, so his choice for our represantive (i.e. Adam) was both fair and accurate.

"AT no time in all of human history have we been more accuratly represented than in the Garden of Eden. To be sure, we did not choose our representative there. Our representative was chosen for us. The one who choose our representative, however, was not King George. It was almight God. When God chooses our representative he does so perfectly. His choice is an inallible choice. When I choose my own representatives, I do fallibly. Sometimes I select the wrong person and am then inaccurately represented. Adam represented me infallibly, not because he was infallible, but because God is infallible. Given God's infalibility, I can never argue that Adam was a poor choice to represent me" (Sproul, Chosen By God)


By grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Ray Berrian:


Hello.


BROTHER RAY BERRIAN SAID: The majority of sinners on their way to Hell or already in Hell, is not remotely close to Divine mercy


ME (BROTHER JOE's REPLY): Brother Ray, your problem is that you put more faith in man to make the right choice than you do the goodness of God. Brother Ray, do you believe there would be less people in Hell if man's eternal destiniy is dependent upon God's will or the will of man? From what I know about the goodness of God and the depravity of man from the scriptures I have no doubt that heaven would be much more populated if God NOT man chooses.

It gives me comfort to know that my eternal destiny rests upon God's loving nature.

Your brother in Christ,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Joe,

You said, 'ME (BROTHER JOE's REPLY): Brother Ray, your problem is that you put
more faith in man to make the right choice than you do the goodness of
God.

Ray: Really, my friend, I do not have much faith in sinners, because they have the proclivity to continue in their sins. If the Holy Spirit does not continually cause them to be convicted and convinced of their sins, no one would turn to Christ. I am in agreement with Jesus who said, of the trillions of people who will have ever lived, 'many' will be lost and relatively 'few' will find Him. [Matthew 7:13-14]

You said, 'Brother Ray, do you believe there would be less people in Hell if man's
eternal destiniy is dependent upon God's will or the will of man?'

Ray: I believe it is not the Lord's will that any perish in Hell. [II Peter 3:9] God wishes that all sinners would become saved. [I Timothy 2:3-4] The Greek word is 'wishes' all people to be saved . . . ' In this sense His will is that none would go to Hell. He, according to Scripture, gives sinners the complete possibility to know and follow Him. But, sinners follow their own sinful will and ways and neglect or refuse Jesus. Human beings wills are being carried out according to their desire to be saved or to continue in their beloved sins.' I, of course, reject the idea of God who picks and chooses the saved and the damned. [Mark 16:16]

You said, 'From what I know about the goodness of God and the depravity of man from the scriptures I have no doubt that heaven would be much more populated if God NOT man chooses.'

Ray: I think I understand what you are saying. If He was not a good God He would not have died for all sinners. [I Timothy 2:6 & I John 2:2 & I John 4:14]

By saying that the Lord, for whatever reason, picks only the 'few' to be saved, and damns forever in Hell the vast majority, turns Him into a Divine Monster, rather than a merciful God.

 

Ray,
You said:
By saying that the Lord, for whatever reason, picks only the 'few' to be saved, and damns forever in Hell the vast majority, turns Him into a Divine Monster, rather than a merciful God.

Ray:
To say that God has decided to give eternal life to just 1 person would be an amazing thing considering the fact that He could have just left us justly condemned like the fallen angels.
I would disagree with the interpretation that you put on the two verses that you quoted from 2 Peter and I Timothy, but it does leave me with a question. I would just like to see your opinion on an idea. If God would have just let man have what he justly deserved, would that have made God un-"mercifull" in your opinion?

(Let me just say that the fact of God "electing" to salvation His elect is a great thing considering the fact that none believe but those who are elected. If it were not for election, no one would believe.)

May God bless you Ray