Destiny of the un-evangelized

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by robustheologian, Jun 4, 2015.

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  1. robustheologian

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    In an effort to save the Cal/Arm forum from the constant solitary posting and reply of one person, here’s a question:

    What happens to the unevangelized (those who never hear the gospel)? And what are the implications concerning this and the doctrine of election?
     
  2. kyredneck

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    But this multitude that knoweth not the gospel are accursed. Jn 7:49

    What's wrong with you? All evangelicals know that.
     
    #2 kyredneck, Jun 4, 2015
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  3. Revmitchell

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    Prove anyone has died without hearing the gospel.
     
  4. kyredneck

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    Which gospel? Yours? Catholic? SDA? Mormon? JW? Methodist? CoC?

    Which ones contain the bare minimum essentials within the formula for eternal life needed to excite the Spirit to impart immortality?
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jun 4, 2015
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  5. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Robust,

    Scripture tells us, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9)

    I doubt anyone would try to argue that the gospel has been preached to every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue throughout history, but scripture tells us he "hast redeemed" some from every kindred, tongue, people , and nation. How were they converted to Jesus without the gospel preacher? Is this possible? It sure is! Jeremiah tells us, "33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    God does not need a gospel preacher to reveal Jesus to his elect. Scripture tells us, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). All those who are born again first hear the voice of Jesus and are regenerated. A preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but not utilize His voice.

    When Hellen Keller was young, Anne Sullivan introduced her to Phillips Brooks, who introduced her to Christianity, Keller famously saying: "I always knew He was there, but I didn't know His name!"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

    David said, "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts" (Psalm 22:9) and John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb scripture tells us. The point is, God does not need the gospel preacher to accomplish such things as converting the heathen.

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  6. kyredneck

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    Excellent! Thank you. I've heard that preached but never had 'proof' of it.
     
  7. Protestant

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    Helen Keller was the fervent disciple of Spiritualist/arch-heretic, Emanuel Swedenborg.

    Some of Swedenborg’s heresies include:

    Denial of the Trinity; denial of the vicarious atonement of Christ; denial of the deity of the Holy Spirit; denial of a personal devil; denial of a literal Hell; denial of the divine inspiration of the Book of Acts and Epistles; denial of a physical resurrection; denial of no marriage in Heaven……

    Source: https://carm.org/swedenborgianism

    Swedenborg was in constant communication with spirits and angels from childhood:

    In summation: If the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the ditch.
     
  8. franklinmonroe

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    It may not be such a good idea to spread Helen Keller's views since she held to that unique-type of Universalism.
     
  9. Protestant

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    We live in the times of the New Testament. Although many charlatans claim personal appearances by God, Jesus Christ or angels who allegedly illumined and authorized them to teach and preach, no such need exists today as was evidenced in the Old Testament.

    Today we have both the Word of God and preachers/fellow Christians who circle the globe evangelizing all the nations.

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
     
  10. blessedwife318

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    Romans makes it clear that no one has an excuse. All are guilty and all know the truth about God, the ungodly suppress that knowledge. The only conclusion is that those who never here the Gospel will go to hell, all the more reason for us to spread the Gospel to every one.
     
  11. BrotherJoseph

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    Sister Blessed,

    You do realize your man made means system to eternal life being dependent on the recipient being able to hear, understand, and believe the gospel preacher damns and leave no hope for all infants dying in infancy, aborted at birth, as well as the mentally handicap? However, you have boxed yourself into a corner with your quote above because there is only one method of salvation taught in scripture . Or do you have another method of salvation for this people, and if so what is it, and what passages of the Bible is it derived from?

    Thankfully, the doctrine of "gospel regeneration" that you adhere too is not the gospel of scripture. "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts 15:11). You do error in thinking God needs the gospel preacher to convert one to believe the gospel. Take for example, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," (Revelation 14:6). Where is the gospel preacher found in this verse?

    Do you think Cornelius in the book of Acts was unsaved before he heard the gospel preached by Peter?

    Moreover, if gospel regeneration is how one becomes born again, why then did Jesus say "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8)? Here Jesus compares one becoming born again to that of the wind that you cannot tell "whence it cometh, and whither it goeth", but if one receives the Spirit at the time of believing the gospel, than how on earth could this analogy of Jesus's be true because one could then pinpoint a specific time and place that the Spirit is imparted to the point that the gospel is first heard and believed?

    Man always likes to believe they play a role in the salvation plan, but scripture is clear, "But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord..." (Psalm 37:39)

    Finally, please explain to me how David was made by God to hope while yet upon his mother's breast and John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb if faith in the gospel is how one receives the Holy Ghost?

    Brother Joe
     
    #11 BrotherJoseph, Jun 4, 2015
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  12. PreachTony

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    So this...
    is just pointless rambling by Paul? After all, this is, according to you, a "man-made means system to eternal life being dependent on the recipient being able to hear, understand, and believe the gospel preacher."
     
  13. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Protestant,

    Thank for that information about Hellen Keller that I was unaware. I noticed posters jumped on me regarding the citation from Keller (and perhaps deservingly so), but I also noticed nobody addressed any of the scriptural arguments from my post. I guess that is what I get for going outside of the Bible to prove Bible doctrine.

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  14. blessedwife318

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    So you deny Romans 1:16-20
    16*For*I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is*the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew*first and also to*the Greek.*17*For in it*the righteousness of God is revealed*from faith for faith,[e]*as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”[f]

    18*For*the wrath of God*is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.19*For what can be*known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.*20*For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature,*have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g]*in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.*


    Your accusations of me being man centered is amusing since I am a Calvinist and believe Salvation is all of God. But God has ordained the means in which the Gospel is given to the Elect as has already been shown in Romans 10.
     
  15. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Tony

    The gospel according to Paul does not bring immortality or abolish death, but rather only brings these things to light to a child of God, " But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:10) If something is bought to light, it already existed, did it not?

    Only the sovereign working of the Holy Spirit by quickening a spiritually dead sinner can bring one to life.
    "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Ephesians 2:1)
    "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Ephesians 2:5)
    "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13)

    Becoming born again is compared in the New Testament to a resurrection, a new birth, and a new creation. Did Lazarus play a role in his resurrection? Did you play a role in your conception? Did Adam have a role in being created? Of course not to all these things! God acted alone in all these things as he does with one becoming born again, thus the comparisons.

    Is faith not a fruit of the Spirit? If so, wouldn't you first have to have the Spirit in you to have faith in the gospel? How can an evil tree produce the good fruit of faith in the gospel? Did Jesus not clearly say, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:18). What kind of a tree is a sinner before receiving the Holy Spirit, a good one or an evil one?

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  16. kyredneck

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    But you have to admit she was quite remarkable to have been blind and deaf from such an early age. I've nothing but admiration and respect for her tenacity and courage. She had strong root from within herself.
     
  17. PreachTony

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    So, like BlessedWife asked, what does Paul mean in Romans 1:16 by saying the gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation? If it's just a light on a salvation that already exists, then Paul is wrong somewhere.
     
  18. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Tony and BlessedWife,

    Here is the verse, "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

    Did you notice that he said, "unto salvation to every one that believeth?" Not to every one if they will believe it. Who is it that believeth? Those that are born again. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). This verse clearly tells us those that are perishing (i.e. anyone who is not born again) the preaching is received as "foolishness". Who is the one that receives the preaching as as the "power of God"? Is it not, those that "are saved" (Present tense), not "will be saved". To those then it is the power of God, and it is unto salvation, mark you; it is not an offer of salvation. Nor is it their power, but it is God's power, and it is unto salvation, and all of this salvation is after regeneration.

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  19. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Tony,

    I have now answered your question in the previous post, now will you answer these questions of mine below that I previously posted in post # 15, but never received a reply to any of them?




     
  20. BrotherJoseph

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    Sister Blessed,

    I answered your question in post #18, however I never received a reply from you regarding any of the questions I posted in post # 11. I quoted them below in hopes you might answer.

    Also, I know you said you identified yourself as a Calvinist, thus I have another question. Do you believe one is born again prior to being justified by faith, or do you believe these occur simultaneously after one has faith in the gospel? Thanks.


     
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