"Di" vs. "Tri"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. convicted1

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    What say ye?

    I ask this knowing this has been hashed out before, but now, I am not so sure I am in the dichotomist camp. I am leaning towards the "tri" camp, and would like to know what you think. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. JamesL

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    My view is probably a hybrid between dichotomy and trichotomy. Here's why:

    1 )I agree with the dichotomy view that soul and spirit are (at least seemingly) used interchangeably at certain points in scripture

    2) I agree with the trichotomy view that Hebrews 4:12 says that the word of God can divide the spirit and soul, and Paul said, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


    I see only one way to reconcile the issue. Spirit and body are what we are, while soul is who we are.

    The body is that visible, material, physical aspect of a human
    The spirit is that immaterial aspect of us that is invisible to a human eye.
    Our soul is our psyche - our awareness, conscience, personality, will, rationale, etc.

    The reason that soul seems to be used interchangeably with spirit is that the two are joined. Man is a spirit, at home in a material body. Paul considered that our body is a tent, or clothing that we "put off" in death. We will be clothed again in the resurrection, for we are incomplete without our body. In other words, our body is not necessary for us to exist, but without it we are naked and incomplete.

    The soul isn't attached to the body, or else our soul would sleep in death (as our body does). Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man teaches us that a man, separated from his body, is fully aware. So our soul is attached to our spirit.

    Whither the spirit goeth, the soul taggeth along

    So, though I can agree with some premises of each view, I believe each is incorrect in considering the soul as part of "what" we are

    We are spirit, and we are body, but we have a soul.

    Soul is distinct from spirit, but not separated

    I believe this view makes the most sense as to why the soul and spirit are not the same thing, but either can be used in the context of the immaterial aspect of a man - seemingly interchangeably, but not quite
     
  3. convicted1

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    BALDERDASH!!!! :D :wavey: :laugh:

    Just kidding Brother.

    In all honesty, it blesses my soul to read posts like these. The elagance(sp?) with which you wrote this is amazing. I could never conjure up something like this in ten years. Wonderfully worded, wonderfully presented, and wonderfully received by me. :thumbs:
     
  4. JamesL

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    Thanks. Your words blessed me, too. For sure.
     
  5. Archie the Preacher

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    Three part

    I'll go with three parts, pretty much as James outlined.

    Body, the obvious part and from Genesis 2:7 - according to Strong's Lexicon - 'soul' (H5315) involves the 'personality' and 'spirit' as far as I can see indicates the life force (H2416). One requires all three parts or qualities in order to be 'alive' as humans understand it.

    However, I must ask James a question: If Lazarus and the rich man were separated from their bodies, why did the rich man want Lazarus to fetch some water for his tongue? And I heard one of 'my' radio preachers (I think it was Charles Stanley, but I might be mistaken) mention this same thing just a couple days ago about how they were separate from their bodies. So it is a common idea.

    How can one be thirsty - or aware of any torment - or have a 'tongue' to cool without a body?
     
  6. convicted1

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    We had a visiting Brother preaching for us this last sunday and he made a comment along the lines that he thought the rich man was desiring that "Spiritual water", and not natural water. His reasoning was that by him getting one drop of that "Spiritual water", he'd live forever and escape hell. I never heard it put that way before, and I'm not saying I agree with it, but it does seem to have some "traction" to it. But again, I haven't studied this enough to comment on it very much. I always held to physical water, but it would had evaporated before it touched his tongue.
     
  7. Archie the Preacher

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    Okay...

    I suppose that's arguable. I don't put much stock in it, but that's not a guarantee. I do want to see what James makes of it. I'm sure he has reasons for what he believes.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    I lean toward dichomist. man is made a physical/spiritual being.

    the spirit/soul are sometimes interchangeable.......yet the natural man is a living soul,with a dead spirit. both the ...non physical realm

    In addition to the hebrews 4 verse , this one in 1thess 5 comes into play;
    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    There is a physical body...then the spiritual body also to come...

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
     
  9. convicted1

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    How do you have a dead spirit and living soul? Wouldn't both be dead in either in the trichotomist camp?
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Death being separation A natural man has a soul/spirit.Part of which is dead or separated.We would not say a natural man has no soul. Some have suggested the soul deals with the emotions ,feelings ,etc...but that part that communes with God is not functioning...the spirit....

    11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

    12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
    this gets criticism because of charismatic abuses....

    from got questions;
     
    #10 Iconoclast, Jan 26, 2014
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  11. convicted1

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    So, you're saying the spirit is dead, yet the soul is alive, and this is true in both camps? That the "tri" view has body, soul, and spirit, all three are seperate entities? In the "di" view, you have body and soul, yet the soul is intertwined with the spirit, that they can not be seperated? This is what I am gleaning from this thread. Please clarify if I have it all wrong....whiich is a distinct possibility... :laugh:
     
  12. JamesL

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    Those are pretty fair questions. First, I don't believe this is a "literal" account in the fullest sense of the word today. I believe it is a real account that actually happened, but I also believe Jesus used some imagery to vividly express it.

    Just like gnashing of teeth isn't necessarily meant as literal teeth, but is a way of expressing agony and regret. Jesus also said "the worm will never die", but I don't think there are any literal worms. I believe the "thirst" was a picture of the torment and agony the man was/is experiencing.

    I also think Jesus used this picture as a contrast to the "water of life" found in Him. Oh, if that rich man could just have one drop of that water of life from one who knew where to get it. He might have refreshment and rest as opposed to thirst, agony and torment. Alas, it was too late.

    I'm sure this inevitably leads to the question of whether the fire was literal, if I believe the thirst wasn't. No, I do not believe the fire was literal in this account. However, this does not mean I deny any reality of hell.

    We must take into account that the rich man did not go to hell. He was (and still is) in Hades. Death and Hades will be thrown into a lake of fire, so what would be the purpose of a fire in Hades? I can't see it. Also, how can a material fire burn an immaterial being? In Hades, there are no material beings. So a material fire in Hades would be pointless.

    But Jesus said that everyone will receive a resurrected body (John 5:25-29), and from all indications, it will be immune to death just like a saint's body will be. In Adam all die, but in Christ all will live (physical resurrection - c.f. 1Cor 15:20-22)

    A literal fire will not burn up a resurrected body, even though the fire will not be quenched. So it is still possible that there will be a literal fire in hell, but there is not one in Hades.


    Then, to the question of how one can be aware of torment without a physical body? That's where I believe the soul is inextricably joined to the spirit.

    I think you might have slightly misunderstood my other post. I don't believe there are three "parts" of a man. I believe man is made of two parts - spirit and body (dichotomy of nature, or substance)

    But I believe there is a third "aspect" of man, his soul - psyche, awareness, will, emotions, personality, conscience, rationale, etc.


    Maybe an analogy of a car might help. In the most raw sense, a car is "made" of two components - drive train (on a frame) and shell.

    The drive train would correspond to a man's spirit. This is what drives the car. This is where the real, active part of the car is.

    The shell would correspond to a human body. It is interchangeable. Conversion kits are available to put a Studebaker-like shell on a Chevy drive train, and so on. But the shell is useless without a drive train inside. So it is with our body. The body is dead (useless) without a spirit in it. We will take off a corruptible shell at death, and put on incorruptibility in the resurrection. We'll trade in our Chevy body and get that Studebaker

    It is not necessary to have a shell of a car in order for the drive train to be a functioning machine. But the car is not complete without a shell, or body. Same with a human body. We are naked without our body, but alive nevertheless.

    Now, the "soul" of a car is it's personality. This would be horsepower, torque, top speed, gas mileage, etc. These are not "parts" of a car. Rather, a car "has" these. The personality of a car is not the same thing as the drive train, but is inextricably tied to the drive train.

    The car "is" a drive train and shell, but a car "has" horsepower, top speed, etc. And just as the "soul" of a car is attached to the innermost aspect of the car (drive train), a person's soul is attached to the spirit.

    The car's personality does relate to the shell as long as there is a shell on the car. The shell adds the components of wind drag, weight, and other "accessories" which affect the car's character as a whole. But only with the shell on. Take the shell of a car off, and it's nothing more than metal rusting in a junkyard.

    As long as a man is complete, in his body, the soul relates to the body. For instance, if someone touches my body, I might be startled in my psyche. If I feel sad in my psyche, it might manifest tears from my body. If my psyche is humored, my face will make a smile. Stress can make us physically sick. Being physically tired or drunk can make us think funny.


    But since the soul is our awareness, thoughts, ambitions, desires, etc., and the soul is joined to the spirit inside, it is entirely accurate to say that a man can experience regret, remorse, agony and torment without being in the body.

    I hope that's not too wordy. Just trying to be real clear.
     
  13. convicted1

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    You've lost me(which ain't that difficult of a task, btw) when you talk about no literal fire in Hades. I always thought Hades and Hell were interhcnageable words for the same place hell, and the lake of fire a seperate place of torment. The second death belonging to those who die eternally lost are cast into the lake of fire. But that's a different topic altogether.

    But man, can you throw words together in a post! I salute you, Brother!
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    hello C1,

    I enjoy looking into this a bit...but I am unsettled and still open on much concerning this issue. You can have some initial thoughts that are simple....
    like this;

    the physical body of a blind person has eyes,optic nerve,etc....but they are not functioning as they are meant to.he has the parts but he cannot see....his eyes are in effect...dead. If God heals him..he restores what function was lost to those parts...if any cells are dead..he gives life to them.

    I think this is similar with the non material...soul/spirit.....

    see in this simple presentation;

    http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html
     
  15. JamesL

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    You began your quote at verse 44, but you have to back up to verse 42 to see what Paul meant by "natural" and "spiritual"

    Dishonor vs glory
    Perishable vs imperishable
    Weakness vs power

    If you then look at these words elsewhere, and also what exactly happens to our body (and spirit) in regards to sin, it is my firm conviction that:
    Natural = sin-wrecked
    Spiritual = not sin-wrecked

    Our body is infected with the disease of sin. It will be raised without sin
     
    #15 JamesL, Jan 26, 2014
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  16. Van

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    I am firmly in the two part camp, body and spirit. The soul is never separated from the spirit, thus the soul is a part (core characteristics) of our human spirit.

    If we consider Hebrews 4:12 where the word of God penetrates to our innermost being, we see two parts of a whole, joint and marrow, or soul and spirit. To suggest this verse indicates soul and spirit are separate rather than part an inseparable part of our innermost being is without merit. The idea is nothing is beyond or hidden from the power of the word of God, including our innermost being.
     
    #16 Van, Jan 26, 2014
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  17. Winman

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    JamesL, I really liked your post #12 and the analogy you gave. I have always had difficulty with this question myself, you have given me something to think about and study from scripture.

    Really good post. Thank You.
     
  18. convicted1

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    I can see merit with both views. However, Triune God made Adam in His image and likeness, so this makes me wonder if this makes us a "trichotomist" being, too.

    TBS, very good post. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:
     
  19. convicted1

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    I agree he created a very good post. I do know we are inner and outer, but does the inner consist of two intertwined("di"), or two separate entities inside of our outer man("tri")?
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    It seems apparent here:

    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

    ...that we possess soul and spirit, two different words and meanings. I think we also possess bodies. :laugh:

    Looks like three to me. :thumbs:
     

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