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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bronconagurski, Sep 9, 2012.
If not, then did God want them to sin? Is so, did their free will change after the fall?
Adam's will from God was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was the will Adam had. It was the murderer, the liar, the serpent the devil who God had made who sowed in the bad seed and Adam then worshiped the created thing over the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen and followed the will of the devil over the will of God. It was not the will of God for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were created with a free agency from the beginning or there would be no way to go against the will of God.
Ezekiel 28 :
11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verses 16 and 19; and in 2:1, 5, 14; 3:10, 12; 4:11; 5:7, 9, 10, 12, 19.] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
9 Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10 But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. 11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Peter 3:3
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
A Call to Persevere
17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
All humanity has free moral agency before the fall and after the fall.
The problem with determinism is that if God has foreordained it all, it turns God into a moral monster who forces us to do His bidding. It also allows us to have a case against God, we can't be ultimately responsible for our fate or actions.
I do not know but would like to ask in light of the following;
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth* the whole world: (the earth inhabited) he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
1) to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
a) to go astray, wander, roam about
a) to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
b) to be led into error
c) to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
d) to sever or fall away from the truth
1) of heretics
e) to be led away into error and sin
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, (system) according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
When you do something is it done because of deception, by the prince of the power of the air or according to your free will?
Is there any difference between the state before and after the fall?
So, what you are saying is there is a bona fide moral standard that transcends God to which He Himself must be subject for Him to be "moral"? You have this divine right to "hold God accountable" if He fails to govern the way YOU think is right?
Ephesians 6 :
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Hebrews 2 :
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[Or them for a little while] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”[Psalm 8:4-6][Or 7 You made him a little lower than the angels;/ you crowned him with glory and honor/ 8 and put everything under his feet.”]
In putting everything under them,[Or him] God left nothing that is not subject to them.[Or him] Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.[Or him] 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verse 12; and in 3:1, 12; 10:19; 13:22.] 12 He says,
“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”[Psalm 22:22]
13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”[Isaiah 8:17]
And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”[Isaiah 8:18]
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[Or like his brothers] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
What are you saying relative to my question with these verses?
We are not at war with the flesh our will, we are fighting against the schemes of the devil the prince of the air who planted the bad seed, his deception. The only way for that is to believe God even over our own will, our own understanding.
God is calling us into what He has been from the beginning to believe God. To trust in Him and His work. The devil is still using his same old schemes to not get us to believe in God and His word by lies. Satan the devil is the murderer from the beginning. We rather war against each other flesh and blood, while the devil is still sowing the seed of deception.
I agree. I believe we will find all men except the elect to be deceived.
I know what you mean by that when we are in Christ we will be saved.
We also must be careful not to
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off
The unbelieving Jews who have not come to Christ believe they are the elect to and they are deceived. I am called as a believer to encourage others to remain in Christ and not to turn away from the living God Jesus Christ not to seat at their judgement seat. I am a messenger they are responsible for their own actions
This is not the definition of a free will, it is the definition of a corrupt will.
We are slaves to either Christ or to sin. To be a slave to Christ is true freedom, to be a slave to sin is bondage.
It is the Devil that would have one think that freedom is following one's own will.
There is no reason one must conclude what you said above. This "moral standard" must not transcend God in the least. It is a matter of knowing "WHO" God is, and knowing what HIS standard is (and it is the only one that matters) or is, in any sense real, and knowing that that would be counter to HIS very nature. There is no reason to assume that that proper "justice" is apart from God, but rather a facet of his nature which he does not contradict. We can know many things about what God would or would not do by understanding what He has chosen to reveal about himself and his nature. We know for instance, that God will never leave us, nor forsake us. I do not have to appeal to anything other than the revealed nature of God to be able to "judge" whether he Would or Would Not do certain given things.
The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.
I believe there is only our will that leads to death and His will that leads to life. We learn His will by scripture by listening learning by our free agency that His word quickens. Jesus words is Spirit and life. We as Jesus said must say not my will but your will be done. I must be born again and that can only happen by His word. If I do not eat Christ flesh and drink His blood I have no life in me.
IOW, the will is not free. I agree.
I read in the Scriptures that only those with ears to hear can hear the Spirit.
We are all blind and deaf we all need to stop trusting in what we want to see and and want to hear and quite leaning on our own understanding being wise in our own eyes; To take the hand that is reaching out with the words of Spirit and life and He will lead you to eternal life. God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned who depend on their own understanding.
Adam, and Lucifer, were free moral agents until they chose freely to sin...
BOTH of them became enslaved afterwards to their new spiritual states, in case of Adam and all of us, tasting spiritual death...
ONLY Jesus after Adam ever had 'free will" fully, as he is both God and sinless man!
Thank God that he determines salvation, For can't we trust in the lord og heaven to make the right/best choices in all things that He does?
It is absolutely the definition of "Free Will". Properly understood..."Free Will" is defined the same way whether it be possessed by a being who is good or evil, corrupted or pure. There is no denying that man has become corrupt, or that "the imaginations and intents of men's hearts are only evil continually".... (Yes...Arminians have read that particular passage too) but it has nothing to do with whether one has contra-causal "free-will" or not. Re-defining, or not understanding what is meant when one uses certain terms is the disconnect between Cals and Arms a lot of times, I think. When an Arminian says we have "free-will"....we aren't trying to deny the utter depravity of human nature that Calvinists are so desperate to wallow in...we are merely suggesting a facet of Sovereignly God-given human ability to act without external influence or internal naturalistic determination. Until this distinction is grasped....dialogue does not exist.
Yes....and they had it afterwards too...as do you.
If not....then YES...God DID "want" them to sin...but he DIDN'T "want" them too, and he did give them free will.
Their capacity for being granted contra-causal freedom of volition was in no way compromised or changed...Their "nature" and their proclivities became corrupted for sure...but that is not what free will is about in the least. If one's "choices" are exhaustively determined by their "nature"...then "free-will" does not exist...but if it isn't, then "free-will" does...Problem is...Calvinists are always defining "free-will" in reference to a being's normative state or "nature" (which they teach as un-alterably corrupt, and rightly so)...an adherent of "free-will" however,defines it as a capacity which the being either DOES or DOES NOT posses REGARDLESS of their nature....This is a stumbling-block which makes meaningfull dialogue difficult a lot of times...and impossible 95% of the time.
Calvinist..."Free-Will" is defined by a being's "State" or "Nature"
Arminian..."Free-Will" is defined by a being's "Capacity" or God-given "Ability"
what did God mean when he told Adam that if you chose to rebel and sin, you will SURELY die?
Before the fall--Adam was PERFECT and had NO SIN before GOD--Something we dont think about is when Paul said that it was the woman who was in the transgression and not the man and that the woman was the weaker vessal(thats why the wife if to be submissive to the husband)but by no means did Adam get away with it(he did do what GOD said NOT to do)but realize this--that Eve ate of the fruit FIRST and then brought it to adam after she had eaten--Now Adam knew that God had said eat and die--so there he was having not ate of it and eve(his darling wife which he LOVED)standing there havine eaten and going to die as God has said--(just my view)Adam loved his wife soooo much that he only ate the fruit because he didnt want to lose his wife(but he also suffered the death with her) the death was seperation from god and his spiritand that death brought to mankind a new nature called SIN
adam was no longer perfect and holy--(Christ was the only man ever to be born perfect and remain perfect in obediance to the Father until death)no wonder its by the BLOOD of CHRIST and not the works on man(HOLY BLOOD)
we have an advantage over adam--he sinned and was seperated from God
we have an advocate in Christ-that when we sin as John says we have someone to stand for us as a lawyer on our behalf--and through the BLOOD we remain in Christ and the spirit of God NEVER leaves his childrenbut he does whip his children for disobediance--Adam never had this-and WE ought toTHANK and GLORIFY GOD for his mercy unto us!!!