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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Oct 28, 2008.
Is this a sin that Christ did not die for? Did He not pay the penalty for this sin?
Also does this mean that those of us who are saved are so because God paid for all sins and we made up this last part on our own?
Interesting question Dale.
We were all unbelievers before we were believers, yet God has forgiven us. Yet if we die in that state of unbelief, we will wake up in hell.
But Christ made it clear that he who does not believe is condemned because he has not believed in the only begotten Son of God.
Crummy answer huh?
Amy that is why the calvinist position is consistent.
We were all unbelievers. The one the father draws are the ones that over come their unbelief.
Well, if that wasn't the most obvious straw man setup, I don't know what is.
You posted a question you already think you knew the answer to, in order to draw out a fallacy in someones answer, and proclaim your own theology correct.
Jesus Christ died for sins. All sins. The sin of the world. The Bible says that if we believe on Him, we are saved. If we don't believe, we are condemned, because we have not believed. I don't think the Bible defines unbelief as sin, but rather, the state of the sinner. Sinners who hate God are in unbelief, and in their unbelief, they sin and bring the wrath of God upon themselves. Sinners who believe have the mercy of God and the righteousness of God imputed to them.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Don't try to make the Bible say something it doesn't.
Christ Jesus ATONED (words have meaning - took away, bore punishment, covered, forgiven) for every sin of His chosen.
All others die IN their sin; obviously atonement was NOT made for them or they would be likewise forgiven.
Remember the atonement was a transaction between the dying Son and the Father.
So to the op - Jesus DID die for unbelief in those chosen before the foundation of the world to receive his special love/grace. And did NOT for all others who will spend a well-deserved eternity in hell.
What makes you think you don't deserve eternity in hell (no doubt you will say "oh, but I do, but God's sovereign grace chose me praise His love amen amen").
Your doctrines of "grace" make me sick.
When did I (or Dr Bob or anyone else) say that we don't deserve hell?
That is the whole point.
That is a rather broad statement.
Care to explain just what it is about the doctrines of grace that makes you sick?
Is it because the doctrines of Grace destroys our ego? Is it that is makes God wholly God and man wholly dependent on God?
The Gospel is a stumbling block.
One side note, I am assuming that you are merely a fan of Dr Ruckman and not actually the man himself since you have his pic as your avatar.
Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, there are many on here who have as avatars famous theologians as their avatars.
Most though are not of someone still living.
No big deal, just wanted to make sure I had that much clear
Are you saying by this statement, that those people in hell, whose sins have been atoned. Whose sins are forgiven and the wrath of God satisfied, still are punished?
How is the Father justified in punishing those whom the Son has atoned? What sins are those in hell paying for if their sins have already been forgiven and the act of unbelief is not a sin?
Also Would not unbelief be a violation of the first commandment?
Christ died once for all sin. It's what the Bible says. Atonement does not = forgiveness, nor does it negate justice.
I'll say it again...atonement does not = forgiveness.
That's right. I've said this before too. If the atonement is all that is needed for forgiveness and justification, then there is no need for faith, which we are told repeatedly by Christ that we must have to receive eternal life.
Then do you believe that Christ merely purchased the posibility of salvation on the Cross and that the atonement is actually limited, but it is limited by the decision of the sinner, rather than the decision of God?
I think that is what you are saying.
Like God has a blank checkbook with an unlimited balance that He can then fill in for the sins of any who believe. Is that correct?
These are not rhetorical questions.
I seriously want to know what you believe.
We need to think these through.
Yes, but Amy, even our faith is the gift of God.
Otherwise it is a99% God plus 1% our faith that gets us into heaven.
Personally, I believe that Christ's atonement secured my faith. I just can't get myself to say that Christ's atonement for my sins, was not enough to save me. That thought seems blasphemous and quite honestly makes me sick.
I can't believe that I've seen someone say that "unbelief" is not a sin.
Do you believe that you were saved apart from your faith? Can you be saved without faith?
If your answer is no, then you must believe that you need atonement by your Savior and faith in Him.
I have said nothing like that Dale. We have been over this quite a number of times. The atonement was a legal payment for sin. It the atonement is what you are stating it is, all of the Israelites would have been saved due to the atonement alone apart from obedience.
This is the first time I have heard of the atonement securing faith. It is not even the purpose of the atonement. If Christ's atonement was enough to save apart from faith, you would have to be a universalist, as Scripture is clear Christ died once for all.
If I give you a chainsaw...and tell you to cut down a tree...who's chainsaw cuts down the tree? It's not mine...I gave it to you. It's yours. Even the calvinist model has even the "gift" of faith belonging to the person using it. It's still our faith, anyway you cut it.
Amy, but do you not believe that even our faith is the gift of God?