Did Christ atone for unbelief?

Thanks for the reply, JC. If Jesus' death does not pay for Hitler's sin, how is God recompensed for his sin since eternity in hell for Hitler does not repay God? In this scenario God's justice in punishing sin is never accomplished in all eternity. This simply cannot be.

My answer to you about why Hitler is in hell is this: Hitler is in hell because he rejected the salvation that is available in Christ. If Hitler, in the bunker, even after all of his evil works had repented of his sin and confessed Christ, he would be in heaven today. God is THAT satisfied with Christ's sacrifice and God is THAT gracious.

 

Can you give me some scripture that specifically states that eternal punishment in hell does not satisfy God's wrath? Also, can you tell me what God's purpsose is in sending men to hell if it is not to satisfy his wrath?

 

Just one sin separates us from God. You only have to look at the OT atonement. If one sacrifice was enough to satisfy God's wrath, the sacrifices would have ceased after one session. An individual in hell would be paying for the ONE sin that separated them from God in the first place. What about the millions, billions or trillions of other sins the individual commits?

 

Yes I do think it exhaustively answers the question. Since I believe Augustinian original sin is a fallacy, this does not apply to infants as they are not guilty. This verse applies to those who are sinners. Man is condemned for not believing, plain and simple.

 

You know I'm talking about the OT sacrificial system. Are you questioning my salvation by stating "in case I missed it"?

edit... So I take it the "Dr" was by his lack of clarification (he did see this post and ignored it). Amazing administrators and moderators can get away with the same things the members are banned for!

 

O.K...I won't even discuss this with you if you don't believe in original sin. That is a whole other discussion. Does anyone more familiar with baptist history know of any baptist groups that denied original sin? I'm asking this question because this is supposed to be a "baptist" website. I just don't know how someone can take this view and still call themself a baptist. Perhaps WD holds to some other form of original sin that I'm unaware of.

 

Original sin is just that...original. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, and there are PLENTY of "baptists" that believe just that. Instead of looking at history, look in your Bible for answers.

 

Please show me one baptist creed or confession that states we are not guilty of Adam's sin. I don't think there is one.
Also and most importantly, the book of Romans is very clear that all men died and are in sin because of Adam.

 

Like I said, spend more time in the Word and less time in creeds and confessions. Your take on Romans is interesting, particularly what Paul states in chapter 7.
9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Getting this back on track with the atonement...

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

 

JC, I cannot prove a negative. There is no verse of scripture that declares that the Apostle Paul has never competed in the Daytona 500. What would be required is a verse that says that Paul DID compete. Outside of that, saying that Paul has not competed in the Daytona 500 is simply a safe, reasonable, logical conclusion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The reason I say that eternity in hell does not atone for one's sins is because there is no biblical declaration otherwise and it is not reasonable that one could repay God for a capital offense. A man who commits murder should be put to death because it is just that he be put to death. However, putting him to death does not repay the crime he has committed because it does not bring the person back to life whom he killed. If this is true on the human level, how much more true is it on the eternal level. God is just when he sends men to eternal punishment, but God is not recompensed by doing so.

 

We are getting way off the original subject. I'll start a new thread so this one can continue.

 

Definitely an intersting point of view. Thanks for expounding on it more, but I still disagree. I think the problem is that you have failed to offer an explanation for why a God whose wrath towards someone's sin has been satisfied, would still send that person to hell. Sending someone to hell just seems pretty wrathful to me, even if you say that unbelief is not a sin.

 

JC, I think that if you hold that God's wrath against sin is satisfied by sending people to hell you need a biblical statement to support it. Frankly, I don't know how you can biblically support the idea that man can pay for his own sin. Not even eternity in hell can pay for sin. If that is true, one must conclude that God is never recompensed for evil and justice and his righteous anger against sin are never satisfied. This view is unnecesary at best when we consider the biblical statement that Jesus is the propitiation for our sin and for the sin of the whole world. This statement shows that God is completely satisfied with Christ's sacrifice. Jesus' atonement is therefore perfect and complete. This, then, is the basis of the gospel; that God's wrath has been satisfied, and it is the reason for preaching the gospel; salvation is available to all through faith in Christ.

Your position leaves us with an angry God whose justice can never be accomplished or it leaves us with men who are capable of paying for their own sins. Neither option is acceptable.

 

O.K. This time I'll ask you to answer my question. I'll ask it again. "If God's wrath is totally satisfied for all men, why does he still send some to hell?"

 

I think he does so because it is just to do so. Again, if a man commits a murder, the state should put him to death. The state should do this because it is just. However, putting the murderer to death does not recompense the family of the victim because the victim remains dead. How can the family be recompensed? Outside of Christ, they cannot be. That is what makes his death so unique and so completely unmatched.

Similarly, God is just when he sends sinners to hell, but he is not recompensed by doing so. Only Jesus' propitiation satisfies God's wrath against sin.

JC, thanks for the civilized conversation. It is not always so on the BB!

 

The difference between the state's killing and God's choices is that God doesn't make mistakes.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I see what you're saying, and I really appreciate your attempts to expound on your position. It helps me not to jump to any unnecessary conclusions. However, I still think your position is lacking (I'm sure you're just shocked!). I would be foolilsh to think that this discussion would change your mind...but I think such a discussion can help us both understand each other's position and help keep acusations of heresy to a minimum. To be clear, I don't think your view amounts to heretical, but I do think that your in many cases (not all) leads to a lesser appreciation of the gospel.
I do agree that His death is unique and unmatched. However, I'm only limiting the atonement in the sense on whom it was meant for. I believe that Christ's atonement was powerful enough to save any man. However, I believe that His atonement was only meant for certain people. I believe His atonement actually saved people and it's salvific power was not dependent on man's cooperation in any way. His death secured the salvation for His people. Now, many will say that I'm saying that by believing this, that I'm saying that men don't have to believe. I'm don't believe that! I believe that His death secured the fact that I would believe! It's all of Him!! The only reason I can say I believed is because of what the Trinity, working in perfect unity, accomplished for me.
For me to say that Christ died to atone for the sins of all men, is to imply that Christ failed (I assume that you don't believe this!). But if Christ's death was to pay the penalty (eternal death or hell) for all persons sins, then no one would be able to go to hell.
I agree with you that it is just of God to send people to hell. In fact, it would be just of God to send me to hell a thousand times over. Thank God for His grace! However, if Christ's death was to pay the penalty of sin for all men, would it be just for the Father to ignore His Son's atoning work and still send some men to hell? This would put the Trinity in disunity.

 

Bob, you do know that I am on your side, right?