Did Death of Christ Atone For All Sins or just those Unto time of Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    just curious, as it appears that sometimes we in Evangelical circles teach that jesus death caused us to have a new slate, all sins commited up uptil our new birth were wiped away/pardoned/atoned for BUT...

    need to keep the law in order to be right with GOD going forward, still under 10 Commanments to a degree etc...

    Didn't the death of Christ though FULLY fulfill my Law keeping requirements to GOD, and so what GOD expects/desires me to do iss to grow up in the grace of GOD, unto my full measure in Christ?

    That I read my Bible, pray, witness, share etc to grow in my walk , not to keep it?

    Guess asking does the OT LAW have ANY hold over me as a Chrsitian or not?
    Does GOD still expect us to abide/live under it, almost like NT jews or not?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    Never heard of this view before.

    The correct answer to the OP question is No.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    Well no, the law has no hold over a Christian as we are not under the law, but there are two parts to the law. The ceremonial and the moral and the ceremonial has passed except for baptism and the table which was added. However that does not mean we can disobey the moral part. The true believer will seek to obey the moral because of his new nature.

    That being said I think you might have a miss-understanding about the fall, the law, and salvation. I am not suggesting you are not saved,, but you do seem confused here a little.

    First so many want to confuse the law as having some form or ability to damn people. It does not and never has. The law not only could not save anyone it could not damn anyone. We are damned already because of the sin of Adam. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
    Noticed all is past tense. All men have sinned in Adam because of Adam even before we actually have sinned in life. We are born separated (lost) from God. We don't become lost at some point after birth because we sin.
    The proof is that before the law of Moses men died. They were considered sinners needing salvation before the law was given or before it could impute sin to them and the proof was that they died.
    13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    So we are lost not because we violate the commandments (the law) we are lost because we are associated with Adam. It has always been that way. There has only been one law that has been given that can condemn man and that was in the garden, the tree of the knowledge good and evil. There has only been one law given by which men can be saved from that curse. That law is connected to another tree, the cross. The garden is gone and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is gone and no other law has been given or will ever be given to overcome the cross and make men lost again. That is why we cannot lose our salvation. The Christian is no longer under any law except the law of grace, while the unsaved, (the lost those who have never been saved) are still under the law that Adam fell to in the garden.

    So we are not saved by keeping the law of Moses (the Commandments) because the law had no provision to save. No place does scripture say if you keep the law you will be saved (go to heaven). It had no power to save. Salvation has always been by grace through faith from Adam and until the end of time.
    The law did come with promises but those promises were for this life. If you obeyed the law you would be blessed on the earth. If you did not obey you would be cursed on the earth.
    The giving of the law did not make man any more lost. Lost is lost and the law did not make him any more unworthy. The law had another provision. It was to give man a better understanding that he IS lost. Every time he broke a command he should have seen just how wicked he is. It was to be his teacher to point him to something else for salvation. That something was a sacrifice and it was the Son of God.
    For those who are saved the law has no authority over us, but the law Giver does and His standards have not change. So we are subject not to the law, but to the One who gave the law and by watching how someone lives (the practice of their life) we can know if we or they are saved or not if we or they claim to be a Christian. True believers keep His commandments.
    john 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    The word keep was used as a nautical word back when this was written. The sailors of ships were called star keepers. They kept the stars. In other words they steered the ships they sailed by the stars to guide them to where they were going because they did not have GPS systems like today. They did not one day keep the stars and another day not keep them. They kept the stars as a practice of steering the ship. It is the same with a true Christian. He keeps the commands as the practice of his life. Like the sailors who may get a little off course during the day because of wind and current but would quickly correct their path again at night, the Christian may sin during any given day, but he corrects his course once he sees his sin because the One that leads him and points it out. So our practice is to keep the commands and if we do sin we are swift to return to the right path through confession and repentance. It is not the daily practice of a true believer to be off course (practice sin) as a way of daily life. Those who practice sin willfully seek a path contrary to the path of God. No star keeper ever did that and neither does any Christian. We cannot practice sin.
    1 John 3:9-10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
    In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (practice) righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    Keeping the commandments does not save us. It only proves that we have the faith that does because we are steering our ship by the One True Light who guides His children. We who are saved are commandment keepers.
     
    #3 freeatlast, Mar 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2011
  4. glfredrick

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    The NT speaks of the Law as a "schoolmaster" and implies that it can "instruct us" in God's ways. But it also makes clear that we are not "saved" by acts of the Law, nor could we be, even if we followed that Law perfectly.

    We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, even the works of the Law. Further, our salvation is IMPUTED to us as the righteousness of Christ, who took from us our sin and replaced it with His perfect righteousness. When God "sees" a "saved one" (in a simplistic manner of speaking) God sees His Son's work, not our own failures.

    In keeping to the "schoolmaster" theme of the Law, it helps us to know more of the mind and heart of our saving God, and as we build our loving relationship to and with Him, we read His law and realize how much we lack, and also how what we ought do in order to live in accordance with His will.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Jesus atones for all the sins of some people.

    the law is now in our heart,Heb8 2cor 3.

    christians are not lawless persons we are under law to God, not for justification or sanctification......but by the obedience of faith

    We love God the first four commandments...

    We love man by keeping the last 6....Romans 13
     
  6. JesusFan

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    thanks for the explanation...

    Guess my main concern is with differing viewpoints between those who hold to a "covenant" theology and those of a "Dispensalional" theological approach...

    Between Lordship salvation vrs Free Will salvation

    From my readings, seems that at times those under Covenant beliefs emphasis placed on works so much, still under law, that almost like neither full assurance/security are in play, that as we preserve and maintain good works, at the end show ourselves to be really 'elect"

    Am I wrong in how I see this area?
     
  7. Winman

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    Freeatlast said:

    I'm sorry, but I disagree with so much of this. First, Romans 5:12 does NOT say that death passed upon all men because all have sinned in Adam. It says death passed upon all men "for that all have sinned". This is speaking of personal sin. God made it clear in the scriptures that the son was not to bear the sins of their father.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. God said this several times in the OT. So, it is unscriptural that men bear Adam's sin.

    Men after Adam did not commit sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, but they commited their own sin nevertheless.

    Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    If Cain gave an acceptable sacrifice, it would have been accepted. If he continued to rebel and give an unacceptable sacrifice, it was sin.

    Men had the law written on their hearts and the law of their conscience before the law of Moses. Pharaoh knew it was a sin to have Sarah, Abraham's wife when he found out she was married.

    Men knew that lying, stealing, killing, adultery was sin LONG before the law of Moses.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Jesus is Lord, there is no real issue here.

    free will salvation is a myth

    faith without works is dead being alone.God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    look up or google the three uses of the law

    Covenant theology is clear on faith and assurance

    Real Christians will perservere in the Faith as God keeps us PHIL1:6
     
  9. Ron Wood

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    Both the Westminster and the London confessions state very clearly that the law is a "rule of life" for the believer. This is what they call the "third use of the law." What they intend is that we are to use the law to regulate us in our lives. We are not under the law for justification but we are under it for sanctification. By the law we become more holy and more "Christlike". The problem is that we can 't be more holy than we already are in Christ. I challenge anyone to show me how one can be more holy. There simply are no degrees to holiness or righteousness. You are either holy or you aren't. You are either righteous or you aren't. There is no almost holy or almost righteous. If you are not perfectly holy you aren't holy. We can claim to use the law as a guage but still it can only condemn us. The very best we can do is only sin before the law. I issue another challenge: show me even one law that you have ever kept in any way other than what Christ did in our place. The law was never meant to be a rule of life for the believer and in no way is a believer under it. Christ is our "rule of life." He has kept the law for all His people and brought in an everlasting righteousness that God will not only accept but delights in. In Him I am as holy as God and complete. As He is so are we in this world, 1John 4:17
     
  10. Osage Bluestem

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    The way to receive the atonement is to place your faith in Christ. Those who have faith in Christ have all of their sins atoned for. Those who never place their faith in Christ never receive any atonement at all and remain guilty of their sins.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Yes Ron we are positonally holy In Christ and our future condition is certain, but what do you make of scriptures that exhort us to grow in grace and knowledge,or to keep the heart with all diligence , or to follow peace with all men ,and holiness without which no man will see the Lord, or earnestly desire such?If we already have it,why we we be told to strive for it?

    here is from the 1689 confession ,I think this is what you are talking about..
    i like the teaching here,what do you think they missed:
     
  12. Van

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    Reply to All

    First, I think the question misses the mark. Rather than ask, did Christ's death atone for sin for all time or just the sin up to His death, we are left with having to define "atone." I think the way Calvinists us the term is wrong because they combine the reconciliation provided by Christ's death to all men, with their idea that Christ only died for the previously chosen elect, limited atonement. This just creates a muddle.

    So if we go back to basics, the Lamb of God, when He died "took away the sin of the world." Not the sins (plural) of the previously chosen elect. But, did anyone have their sins taken away individually when Christ's sacrifice was accepted by God as the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world, 1 John 2:2? Nope. Paul point our that an individual must "receive" the reconciliation. And how is that accomplish? When God credits our faith in Christ, Romans 4:5 and spiritually places us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Once spiritually "in Christ" we undergo the circumcision of Christ, and arise in Christ a new creation, born again from above. We are now spiritual children of God, awaiting our physical adoption as sons of God at the second coming.

    Hebrews makes it clear Christ's sacrifice was a once for all item, providing the ransom for all sin, past, present and future, provided one receives the reconciliation when God spiritually places us in Christ on the basis of crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

    As to the Old Covenant Law, mankind no longer has that dispensation to rely upon, the old has gone away. But because Christ restated some of the Law's moral requirements, those are still in effect for those not covered by the Blood of Christ. Of course those of us who are in Christ, are justified so even when we sin, and we all still do sinful acts of commission and omission it is just as if we did not sin.

    But why as for forgiveness every day as per the "Lord's" prayer, if we our sins do not count against us, if they do not pile up wrath? Because by articulating the sins it shows we are listening to our indwelt Holy Spirit, and growing in understanding and faithfully living so as to avoid needless sins.

    May God Bless.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    You don't get it. The son is not being held responsible for the sin of the father. We are an extension of Adam in this and the results fall on all us. No other sin touches the offspring as the sin in the garden. The reason is that no other sin carries the same results. Separation from God. Once Adam was separated he could not pro-create children that are joined to God. That is why one man's act makes all man separated and the second Man's act bring many back.
    If this is difficult to understand then think of it like spiritual DNA. At creation one could say that Adam was linked to God by spiritual DNA. At Adams fall his spiritual DNA died. He had no spiritual DNA to pass on to future generations so we all inherit the separation from God because of the deed of Adam.
     
  14. Winman

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    double post
     
    #14 Winman, Mar 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2011
  15. Winman

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    What I get is that you do not have one single verse in all of scripture to support your view. Romans 5:12 does NOT say Adam's sin passed on us, in fact, Rom 5:14 clearly says men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. I am amazed that people teach exactly the opposite of what scripture says. And Eze 18:20 makes it absolutely clear that God holds men responsible for their own personal sin and does not impute the sins of the father to his sons or vice versa.
    I choose to believe what the scriptures directly say, and not the theory of Augustine.
     
  16. ituttut

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    His Word tells us we are all today GENTILES. Peter says he can (and will) be saved), just like the Gentile. And How is that. Peter saw it first hand after the happening on Damascus Road, and he was dumbfounded. He and those of the Jerusalem church could not believe their eyes. NO LAW, AND NOW WATER BAPTISM TO BE DONE to receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43-45,
     
  17. Tom Butler

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    Winman, I think I agree with you, but I want to be sure we're talking about the same thing. I do think we inherit our sinful nature from Adam, but not his sins. It is our sinful nature from which proceeds our desire to sin, and those sins are our very own.

    Are we on the same page here?
     
  18. Winman

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    Yes Tom, although I do not like the term "sin nature". The Bible says we are "flesh", and that is the term I prefer.
    The reason I do not like the term sin nature, is because the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus came in the "flesh" and had the exact same nature as us.
    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the NATURE of angels; but took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
    Jesus had the exact same nature as us, and I refuse to say Jesus had a sin nature. We are flesh which is weak, and easily tempted.
    How were Adam and Eve different? They were tempted to give up paradise for a piece of fruit. That sounds pretty weak to me.
     
  19. ituttut

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    NO, you are not wrong. If you don't mind, I'd like to embellish on the Works part. From Adam until after Damascus Road, a WORK was required by man to hold him until it was time to free them.

    The Work done by man for his salvation can very well be seen as you point out, for full assurance is missing. But this Nation that God asked to make Covenant with Him, did believe if they did the works, they would someday Inherit The Earth. And by golly, this will happen. And when that Nation of Works, Law, Ordinances, Feasts, Holy Days, and Sabbaths does Inherit the Earth, the proselytes will be taken care of by Israel, as the proselytes Serve Them.

    If we read all the way through the Bible, and cannot see how those such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abram, before Abraham, and the nation of Israel were saved, then we will believe, and think we are associated with The Nation of Israel. I find this salvation to be that of the Kingdom that was AT HAND. Today we have something much better offered to us, and that is the Body of Christ, which we are already One With Him.

    Noah Found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord, as did the others, but a Work was required of All. What can we find today apart from the Nation of Israel? For By Grace we are saved, Through Faith. It is a gift, and we don't, cannot, and never believe that we had one blessed thing to do with it (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    Paul tells us of this wonderful dispensation we are in, and in it we have access to the GRACE of God (Ephesians 3:2). How do we access this Grace on Through Faith? Just by actually believing in the Only One that came down from God to save us. His Name is Jesus Christ. About 30 years later John puts it another way, " For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
     
  20. convicted1

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    When we are "born again", it is as though we had never had sinned before God. Now, after salvation takes place, and until we breathe our last breath, we have to pray daily for God to forgive us of the sins we do commit in the body. We also need to crucify our flesh daily.

    Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    If He will not remember them again, He has forgot about them, too. So we do have a "clean slate" at the moment salvation takes place.


    We are not under the law and/or ten commandments whatsoever now. There is another thread where I addressed this....please go there and read what I posted about it.


    What the death of Christ did was to fulfill the law, and to make an access for us Gentiles to be grafted in contrary to nature....the wild olive branch being grafted into the natural olive branch....Jews grafted out due to unbelief, the Gentiles then grafted in because of belief.


    The law was our "schoolmaster" that brought us to Christ, and not into Christ. MAJOR difference in bringing to Christ, and into Christ. The law was our sins looking back at us through a mirror. The law showed us how lost we really was. The law was our sins on a billboard, for all to see. The law can not, and never will, bring eternal life. The best the law could do was to push the OT saints' sins ahead a year. The next year, after their sacrifice, they were pushed ahead another year, etc. The blood of bulls and goats only "stayed" their sins from year to year. The Grace covenant contains the blood of Christ, and it blots out our sins!! Animal blood never blotted out the sins of the Jews, and never will.

    Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. I believe the "yoke of bondage" that Apostle Paul was referring to is the law. To be considered an OT Jew, you had to keep the law, whereas, to be a Son of God, He keeps us!!

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #20 convicted1, Mar 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2011

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