Did God have a hand in establishing the U.S.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Terry_Herrington, Aug 24, 2004.

  1. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
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    There has been much discussion concerning a Christian's place in the overthrowing of a government.

    I am curious what part, if any, do you think that God played in the founding of the United States of America?
     
  2. Eltrow

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    1. This world is under the power of the god of this world. Satan offered to Jesus all the nations of the world is He would bow down and him. Is America one of the nations of this world? Yes. I believe that America is part of Satan's plan to deceive the whole world.

    2. Did God know all this was going to happen? Yes, and He alows it.

    3. Did God bless America because of the christians in this country? Yes, and if the christians 2Chron. 7:14 He will continue to bless this country.

    4. America was founded in rebellion against a God given authority.
    England was ordained by God.

    5. The first christians were unequally yoked together with unbelievers. The pilgrims made a "solemn" pact with all who were on the Mayflower, believers and non-believers. Were they believers? Yes.

    6. Is our purpose as christians on this earth to establish worldly kingdom? No.

    7. Are we to be entangle with the affairs of this world? No.
     
  3. poncho

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    Did God give King Charles the authority to use Romans 13 as his own personal means to rule over his subjects with cruelty?

    Wasn't King Charles a "soul" as in every soul be subject to the higher powers? Or was he somehow exempt and relieved from this responsibilty to God, by God himself?

    I've asked this question before but got no answer...so, I'll ask it again. Does one man have the right to use the scripture (Romans 13) to gain a cruel advantage over his fellow man by claiming authority from God in order to advance himself both personally and politically under no uncertain terms?

    Did Adolf Hitler make special arangements with God in order to be relieved of his responsiblity to the higher powers and to use God's own word (Romans 13) along with fear to gain unquestioned loyality from the German people while he ploted the demise of their legal constitutional republic?
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Daniel 4v32 - "...the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men and giveth it to whomsoever He will"
     
  5. Marcia

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    No, but Christians are not given the right to rebel against "cruel" kings or leaders, either. The early Christians were under leaders who put them to death for their beliefs. We are to pray for "the king" (or president) no matter who that is. We are to be lawful and submit unless we are required or forced to do something against God.
     
  6. JeffM

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    No, but Christians are not given the right to rebel against "cruel" kings or leaders, either. The early Christians were under leaders who put them to death for their beliefs. We are to pray for "the king" (or president) no matter who that is. We are to be lawful and submit unless we are required or forced to do something against God. </font>[/QUOTE]Then all of the diciples were wrong.

    Every one of them, especially Paul were rebels for preaching the Gospel. Even Jesus defied the law by declaring himself King of Kings. That alone was punishable by death under Roman law. Most of the NT was penned from prison.

    I don't believe for a minute God expects us to submit blindly. If that were true, then the Gospel would have died immediately after Jesus was nailed to the cross.

    I have studied the writings of the founders and I have no doubt that America was a gift from God. This is not saying other countries weren't, but we are the latest and probably the last.

    Just as he set aside land for his people, the Israelites, I believe he also set aside land for Christians. Sometimes I think that America is going to some sort of Ark in the last days where most Christians will escape the wrath of the Anti-Christ. Also, with America, Christianity was able to spread like wildfire throughout the world. If America had never come into existance, I think Christianity would still be a struggling religion and the persecution would be great.

    God uses man to do his will. The Bible is full of examples of God using man to wage war, kill, rebel among other things. He just doesn't zap things into place. How does he fight against evil? Certainly he could do it alone, but that would be too easy.

    He uses man. Hitler was allowed to come to power, but he used mankind to stop him. Was America wrong for ridding the world of Hitler? No, God used man to stop evil, and he still does.

    I have prayed over this issue for many years and I now have no doubt that as Christians, one of our duties is to try to overthrow evil with the help of God. Why do we have to let Satan and his army of darkness march all over the world?

    Satan wants us to take a back seat. Without us, he can do his will without much effort and God will let him. Just like a police force. Would you want the police to stop working and let the criminals have their way?
     
  7. Rooster

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    No, but Christians are not given the right to rebel against "cruel" kings or leaders, either. The early Christians were under leaders who put them to death for their beliefs. We are to pray for "the king" (or president) no matter who that is. We are to be lawful and submit unless we are required or forced to do something against God. </font>[/QUOTE]Then all of the diciples were wrong.

    Every one of them, especially Paul were rebels for preaching the Gospel. Even Jesus defied the law by declaring himself King of Kings. That alone was punishable by death under Roman law. Most of the NT was penned from prison.

    I don't believe for a minute God expects us to submit blindly. If that were true, then the Gospel would have died immediately after Jesus was nailed to the cross.

    I have studied the writings of the founders and I have no doubt that America was a gift from God. This is not saying other countries weren't, but we are the latest and probably the last.

    Just as he set aside land for his people, the Israelites, I believe he also set aside land for Christians. Sometimes I think that America is going to some sort of Ark in the last days where most Christians will escape the wrath of the Anti-Christ. Also, with America, Christianity was able to spread like wildfire throughout the world. If America had never come into existance, I think Christianity would still be a struggling religion and the persecution would be great.

    God uses man to do his will. The Bible is full of examples of God using man to wage war, kill, rebel among other things. He just doesn't zap things into place. How does he fight against evil? Certainly he could do it alone, but that would be too easy.

    He uses man. Hitler was allowed to come to power, but he used mankind to stop him. Was America wrong for ridding the world of Hitler? No, God used man to stop evil, and he still does.

    I have prayed over this issue for many years and I now have no doubt that as Christians, one of our duties is to try to overthrow evil with the help of God. Why do we have to let Satan and his army of darkness march all over the world?

    Satan wants us to take a back seat. Without us, he can do his will without much effort and God will let him. Just like a police force. Would you want the police to stop working and let the criminals have their way?
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] Well said, I coun't have said it better myself. [​IMG]
     
  8. Karen

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  9. Marcia

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    I think Jeff, Rooster, and Karen have misunderstood the issue, or misunderstood me.

    I was saying that the Bible does not support rebellion against our own gov't. We are not talking about going to war in self-defense.

    Also, the apostles did not disobey civil authorities -- they disobeyed the Pharisees who told them not to preach the gospel (in Acts). When Paul was arrested, did the apostles foment a rebellion?

    Also, I said that we are supposed to obey our gov't unless we are told or required to go against God.

    I don't think any of you who posted on my comments read what I really said.
     
  10. Marcia

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    Yes, well my father fought in WW II, Karen.

    I did not say we are not supposed to do anything when we are asked to commit evil, and I did not say we are not supposed to save people's lives as some Germans did for the Jews (although most of the church stood by and said and did nothing).

    We are not talking about Nazi Germany or fighting self-defense wars. The issue here is that was were the people right in rebelling against their ruler, the King of England, when they fought against England in the Revolutionary War? Is this Biblical? When God himself tells us to obey the rulers of our gov't (Romans 14 and elsewhere), is it right to rebel? Where is the Biblical support for this?
     
  11. Marcia

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  12. Alcott

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    "The issue here is that was were the people right in rebelling against their ruler, the King of England, when they fought against England in the Revolutionary War? "

    In the first place, how was the King of England "their ruler?" Because some Englishmen went to a distant land and said it belongs to the King? and therefore all people there, including the native who had never heard of 'England,' then had a divine command to obey that king?

    Second, when there is a revolution, what determines which government an individual Christian is to obey?... The state, which called him to arms and has protected him from violent criminals and upheld his rights as a citizen? or the faraway imperialistic power which has presupposed its own rule over the land that state happens to be located within?

    Third, where does recognition of government fit into Romans 13? If Americans did not have authority to ovethrow British rule, then what about after they, in fact, did overthrow it? Were the people to ignore the edicts of the new unathorized government and still obey the British rule as if the revolution had not happened? Or, since it did happen, were the people then to submit their own state governments and later to the contitutional federal government? If they were not, then how was the British government a legitimate government, considering that it dervied from revolutions of centuries before?
     
  13. poncho

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    Marcia,

    One of the things I believe God blessed America with is a system of laws within the framework of our government to fight tyranny within the system itself!

    We have no need to overthrow our government as it is based on constitutional principals. We just need to begin to realize the power in which God has given us to stand against evil through our laws, and be willing to use what He has given us in a christian and legal manner according to the law.

    Another thing I believe is that this current admistration in Washington DC is NOT our rightful government...they have expanded their power beyond what is called for in our founding documents and are systematically removing the constitutional restraints (checks and balances) placed on Government to control and keep tyrants out of the system they NEED to be purged from the system. We can do that and should do that to live a peaceful chritian life without having to bow down to tyrants and pay them hansomely for their misdeeds.

    Why would God let us have such a system if He never intended us (christians) to use it to His glory and our benefit?

    We do not need to overthrow our rightful government. But, what we have now is NOT our rightful government...and it needs to put out of the system and quick. IMHO.
     
  14. Karen

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    Okay, thanks for continuing to clarify. [​IMG]
    But I think I was responding to what you originally actually SAID, which was submit unless you personally are ordered to do something wrong.

    Karen
     
  15. Marcia

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    I assume that you know US history -- that those who came to the U.S. and fought the Revolutionary War against England were citizens of England and under his rule (except for the mercernaries who were hired to fight)? So, yes, the King of England was their king, just like the emporers of Rome were over the Jews when Jesus was around and afterwards.

    I am not talking about after the American Revolution but before it. How was that Biblically justified?
     
  16. Marcia

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    Okay, thanks for continuing to clarify. [​IMG]
    But I think I was responding to what you originally actually SAID, which was submit unless you personally are ordered to do something wrong.

    Karen
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks, Karen, for your response.

    There seem to be 2 issues here:
    1. Is it Biblical to not submit to the gov't and/or ruling authorities?
    2. Is it Biblical to militarily rebel against one's gov't and/or ruling authorities?

    I would like to see Biblical support for not submitting to the government or ruling authorities. As far as I know, there is none, except to protect life (as the Jewish midwives did and a few other instances such as Rahab). These acts also were not overthrowing a government but were acts of disobedience to protect life, which I believe is Biblical.

    As far as rebelling against one's government, or monarchy, or any ruler, I would like to see Biblical support for that as well. Rebelling would be not submitting and actively fighting against. This is essentially how the USA got started and I think is part of the thread's question and issue.
     
  17. Alcott

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    So if he was not the king of the mercenaries, nor of the native people, then if they could win the revolution without English subjects, the revolution would be valid? And then, what about so many Irish and German settlers, who had never acknowledged the British Crown. They were, in fact, a major reason for the revolution-- working and settling their own land, while the imperialistic English, to whom they had never been loyal and in many cases antagonistic, claimed dominion over their settlements and activities.

    So for those that had never been British subjects, there are natives (Indians), mercenaries, German, Irish and other settlers, and the French army that also was ast war with England. All that could still make for a decent revolution if the 'subjects' did not revolt against the crown to which they were subject.
     
  18. Marcia

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    Alcott, so was it okay for the British subjects (which made up most of the colonies at that time) to rebel against and overthrow their ruler?
     
  19. Alcott

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    To rebel against Britian, yes. It was nothing but Britian's own presupposition that they "ruled" parts of America anyway. Like the Taliban in Pakistan, their claim of dominion could be recognized or not recognized.

    With your ideas of 'submission to the authorities,' do you consider the upcoming elections a choice to "submit" by re-electing incumbents-- because they say to vote for them-- or of refusing to submit to authority by voting for challengers?
     
  20. Eltrow

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    The answer to your question is no. But charles was authorised by God.
    And to rebell against that power is to rebell against God.
    He as a man like all of us will give an answer for HIS life. He was still ordained by God for the purpose to which he lived. Hitler was ordained by God to judge Europe for their ungodliness.

    Again the answer is no. Does God allow it? He sure does; To allow those that do evil to receive judgement and to chastise His errant children.

    Again Hitler made no special arraingements with God. He did make arrangements with the god of this world, Satan, which God allowed to execute His judgement on the disobedient.

    poncho,
    God gave governments to keep order in this world but they are all,I said all under his control. The US government has the semblance of godly government and has provided a relative safe haven for God's people on this earth, but is still under Satan's control. Satan is bound by God's laws. He must operate within the parameters God has set up. But that does not stop him. Christian are not supposed set up worldly kingdoms. We wait for the Lord Jesus Christ to return when He will rule. Until that time we are to proclaim the Kingdom of God not entangle ourselves with the appairs of this world.
    Larry T.
     

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