Did Jesus "empty' Himself Of Divinity While Upon the Earth?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 23, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Do any of you hold to that?
    That Jesus limited Himself so much that he left his Divinity "In Heaven" and rebecome God again once ascended on high?
     
  2. glfredrick

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    I'd say that you have asked a very loaded question.

    While it is certain that Jesus set aside some of His divine attributes, I am not convinced that we can say that He set aside His divinity. If He did, then He would not have had the ability to die for an untold number of sinners on the cross of Calvary. He must be all Christ and all man, all at the same time, in order to fulfill the demands of Scripture and the justification of God.

    The Scriptures tell us that He took on the attributes of a bond servant.

    Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB 95) 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    But that same passage tells us that "He existed in the form of God."

    My guess is that we, like many who have come before us in the 2000 years of the church age, can argue just how much Christ emptied Himself until we are blue in the face and at war with each other and still not solve the issue, because we simply don't know all the details.

    I expect that Christ had His full divine capacity at His will and at His command, and that the tempter (Satan) worked hard to cause Christ to utilize His full capacity as the Son of God during the temptation so as to negate the express will of the Father in sending His Son as propitiation for sinners. Christ, however, was humble, as a servant to a master, to never once take His eyes off of His Father, nor never exercising His own will apart from that of the will of His Father -- thus living a perfect sinless life.

    In one particular incident, we do see the transfigured Christ in some of His glory (I doubt that it was yet full glory, for some saw Him and lived!):

    Matthew 17: 1-9 (NASB 95) 1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”
     
  3. JesusFan

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    isn't it considered heretical though if when we hold to Jesus "limiting" Himself in the Incarnation to extent that He was no longer God while on earth
    that we have strayed out of "orthodoxy?"
     
  4. glfredrick

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    It would be heretical to suggest that Jesus Christ was/is not fully God/man. There were two major early heresies that came against Christ and the church. The first was that Christ was all and only God, and not man at all. The second, shortly after, was that Christ was fully and only man and not God at all. God's people answered both charges with the orthodox position we still and always hold.

    But note that I did not suggest or offer that Christ was not fully God. I simply said that He chose to set aside some of His divine attributes so as to be a fully-devoted-servant of His Father. I also noted that He had the right to pick back up those divine attributes at any second, but that doing so would have not been in the will of His Father, who had a divinely appointed task at hand.
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  6. percho

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    I believe the word shows he emptied himself of glory. Now what is that? I believe it to be Spirit essence, and eternal life.

    I believe the Word made flesh died the death that is the wages of sin.

    I believe it was Jesus, the Word made flesh that received the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he shed on us whereby we shall be saved. Eternal life and Spirit, equal glory.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Matt. 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

    This is not his water baptism but the true baptism of which his water baptism was a shadow of. Went into the water and was baptized=died, came straightway out of the water= regenerated,given life within himself, the heavens opened and the Spirit of God in the form of a dove lighting upon him=renewal of the Holy Spirit, And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased=thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee

    Verse 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

    We will follow him

    Matt 19:28 That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,
     
  7. percho

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    Quick question. is is said in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Christ meaning anointed, what was he anointed with that makes him the Christ? Also was the Christ to also have been a son of David?

    Did Paul mean we should have the attitude of being equal with God?
     
    #7 percho, Jul 23, 2011
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  8. Tom Butler

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    One way I have heard it put is that Jesus "veiled" his divinity.

    As fully human, Jesus got hungry, sleepy, felt pain. He could be only in one place at a time. Some of you can think of other examples.

    But he certainly did not completely divest himself of his divinity or his deity. He retained the power over life and death and sickness; over nature; he knew the thoughts of men; he said nobody could kill him unless he was willing (and he was). He gave up his life; it was not taken from him. He claimed to be God even as he was fully human.

    I have now said everything I know about the subject, and have said a whole lot more than I understand.
     
  9. freeatlast

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    No! He is and always has been God.
     
  10. JesusFan

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    that is how I have heard it taught concerning His Kenosis...

    that He came to earth as a man, and choose to limit Himself from use of His divine attributes, and that he choose instead to live out His life as full man, empowered and enabled by the Holy Spirit while in human Flesh body!
     
  11. glfredrick

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    I have not responded to your questions because, frankly, I am a bit confused about what you are asking. Are you suggesting that I don't see Christ as both God and man? I do, and I made that very clear above.

    About the other issues, perhaps they are best for another thread, as they don't really pertain to this particular topic. I will say, however, that to be the anointed one does not necessarily mean that Christ was physically anointed with some substance while here on earth. He was "anointed" by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, where we see a complete picture of the Trinity, Father speaking forth from heaven, Holy Spirit in a form that appeared as dove-like, and Son, coming up out of the waters of the River Jordan. He was also anointed unto burial by the woman who poured out the valuable burial perfume.

    As to the "son of David," Christ was indeed a son of David, by birth to Mary, herself a descendant, and by adoption by His earthly father, Joseph, who was also of the line of David. Interestingly, one parent was of the cursed line of David and the other was not, thus negating a God-directed curse on one of the lines of David through a divine intervention in the arrangement of the human parents of the Son of God. Christ is the son of David, who will fulfill the prophecy of God to hold the throne of David forever.

    And, no, I do not believe that Paul was suggesting that "we" have an attitude of equality with God. I believe if you take apart the Greek in that passage, you will find that we should have the same "attitude" as that of Christ, humble servant to the Most High God.
     
  12. Tom Bryant

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    My explanation was that Jesus, during his time on earth, laid aside the independent use of his divine power so that whiole on earth he could stand against temptation by relying on God's Word and God's power. He stated that He always did the will of the Father. He said (John 8:28) that he always spoke what the father had taught him.

    Jesus was fully God and fully man, but while on earth He lived the same way we are supposed to live - in total reliance on the Father.

    That's my take on it.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Sounds good to me!
     
  14. percho

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    I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My post 6 is what I believe and I gave scripture as to why and I understand you disagree. Let me say a little more.

    Matt. 22:42-45 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    The Christ came from God and by the resurrection will be declared to be the Son of God and yet he was also the son of David. They called his name Jesus.
    God is Spirit. Now did the Christ come as God or did he come as the Word made flesh? 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus (the) Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. In another post you said something about heretical, here is what John says is heretical. 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that (the) Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Jesus himself said this. John 3:6 1st part That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
    Was Jesus flesh or spirit? That you answered from Acts 2:36 says God has made that same Jesus. What same Jesus? That Jesus that they had crucified and slain: He God the Father had raised up. You do not have to resurrect God but the Son of man who was in the heart of the earth, Hades for three days and three nights.

    He had emptied himself of something. What? see post 6 and since you brought it up his water baptism says the same.

    Some time after his water baptism Jesus said this. Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    his water baptism was a picture of this baptism spoken of in Luke 12 and his water baptism is also in chronological order of the baptism of Luke 12.
    Jesus the Son of man went into the water and was baptized, that is he died,
    Straightway he came up out of the water, that is was resurrected to life, regenerated.
    And, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: that is see Acts 2:33 having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, also Titus 3:5 renewing of the Holy Spirit.
    And last but not least: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. that is Rom. 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Acts 13:33 in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Col. 1:18 who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

    that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    It is the resurrected Son of man Jesus the Son of God that is a creature.

    The last Adam a quickening spirit

    Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After the resurrection
     
  15. glfredrick

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    I'm afraid that I will once again need some clarification. If I read you correctly, you are saying that Jesus was only a man until after His resurrection.

    Is that what you are trying to convey?
     
  16. JesusFan

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    Is He espousing some type of 'Jesus getting 'adopted" by God by his resurrection from the dead!
     
    #16 JesusFan, Jul 26, 2011
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  17. glfredrick

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    That is my take... I am willing to stand corrected, however.
     
  18. freeatlast

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    You have a VERY serious problem with this kind of interpretation and here it is.
    For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    Jesus was Lord at birth not baptism and the greek term for Lord is a designation for God.
     
  19. JesusFan

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    Biggest Bible verse that would be against this theology would be the ole John 1 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God" "The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us"
     
  20. percho

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    No. I am saying, John 1 1-4 the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Spirit the God. John 4:24 Greek Interlinear Bible (NT)

    John 1:14 The Word became flesh, Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels.

    Can Spirit The God die? --- Phil.2:7 But self empties Greek Interlinear Bible (NT)

    Heb 2:9 for the suffering of death, Phil. 2:8 and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Rom 5:8 Christ died for us.

    What word does God use to describe himself more than any other in all the word of God. how does he show that it is he that is God instead of the idols the people worshiped. The living God used together 30 times in the AV Refers to the idols as being dead.

    He emptied himself. I say the Word says he emptied himself of glory that is inclusive of life in himself and or Spirit essence to die for us yet one he called the Father gave him the Holy Spirit, life and glory again. If he had not Jesus would still be dead in Hades and those which died in him are dead forever the wages of sin.1 C 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth V-26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: V-33 in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Is my post on the type and anti type of Baptism correct as to what took place?
     
    #20 percho, Jul 26, 2011
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