Did Jesus teach Tulip ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Sep 30, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    The acronym Tulip has been given a horrible reputation and being taught that its a man made doctrine, by one named John Calvin.

    But what I want to examine briefly is if Jesus Christ himself taught these truths of tulip..

    T=Total Depravity, this describes mans corrupt nature and inability to please God or come to him [Jesus Christ] in faith [believe] on him..

    Jesus says in Jn 6:44

    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The word can is the greek word dunamai and means:

    to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

    2) to be able to do something

    3) to be capable, strong and powerful



    So Jesus affirms mans inability to come to him in belief..

    Jn 6:64-65

    But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Jesus said in Jn 12:37-40

    37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

    38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

    39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



    man cannot believe in Christ, they have not the ability..

    man loves sin and darkness Jesus said Jn 3:19

    19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    Jesus is Light, so man loves darkness rather than light !

    Because of this, what we are by nature, the flesh, Jesus says this Jn 3:3-7

    3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Without new birth Jesus says we are Just flesh..

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    being in the flesh man cannot please God..Rom 8:8

    8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    And believing in Christ pleases God ! God commands it 1 Jn 3:22-23

    22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ah, but would John Calvin approve of an emphasis on TULIP?
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dont worry about that, focus on what Jesus said..
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Next, U for unconditional election look at Jn 6:37

    37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

    Jn 7:2

    2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.



    The elect were given to Christ in election before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

    9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Eph 1:3-4

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    We were in him because God gave us to him as a spiritual seed. Isa 53:10

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    Jesus said Jn 15:16

    16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    and Matt 22:14

    14For many are called, but few are chosen.
     
  5. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    The major problem with TULIP is that it has no use and teaches antinomianism - as the Catholic Church noted. Why? Because God has not given us a list of the elect.

    The Christian Reformed Church via the Heidelberg Catechism tries an end run by claiming that we obey the Law in gratitude for God's electing us and that, by inference, we don't gain brownie points. This interpretation "justifies" our observing only the specific laws we want to observe. This attempt also ignores the problem of "The law of Christ" as if it has no continuum with the Law of God.

    Further, if we don't observe the Law for brownie points but only because we are grateful then why the big deal over shacking up and homosexual activity? These people are only marginally less grateful than the True Believers.
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    bill

    Focus on Jesus words.
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Next Limited or particular atonement ? Jesus says Jn 10:11,15

    11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Jn 17:19

    19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    Matt 15:24

    24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matt 26:28

    28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Many of his sermons conveyed the Limited or restricted nature of His saving healing Ministry..Lk 4:24-28

    24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

    25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

    26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

    27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

    28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
     
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Next the I for irresistible grace or effectual call..Jn 12:32

    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    men is not in the original, supplied by the translators..so it would read, will draw all to me..what all ? Jn 6:37

    37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    all the elect, all them of both jew and greek who was given to him..Jn 12:20

    20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

    Jn 10:27,16

    27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    The P as to perseverance or preservation of the sheep or saints Jn 10:27-28

    27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Jn 6:44,37

    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    So there you have it..Jesus taught these truths of Tulip, even before calvin was born..

    so I reject the deceit of those who say that tulip is not taught in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..

    This will no doubt be attacked , but nevertheless, truth will be established..
     
    #8 savedbymercy, Oct 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2011
  9. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus didn't say that everyone who came to him had to know his name.
     
  10. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    What is the difference between "called" and "chosen" as you see it? Are only the "chosen" the saved? Who are the called? Are they the ones the Father draws but then reject Jesus?
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    'TULIP' for:
    'T' for Total Depravity of man ...
    'U' for Unconditional Election ...
    'L' for Limited Atonement ...
    'I' for Irresistible Grace ...
    'P' for Perseverance of the saints ...

    In my opinion and experience TULIP spells Salvation. It is a help to understand the truth and reality of God's grace in one's personal life experience. Instead of TULIP, for example, a Roman Catholic will rub a wooden cross bracelet; and an Arminian would rub his knuckles. TULIP to me, has become a great consolation; in it I discovered how the grace of God operates, beginning with unregenerate man and ending with regenerate man,

    T: unregenerate man --- Total depravity
    U: God --- Unconditional election
    L: Christ --- Limited atonement
    I: Holy Spirit --- Irresistible Grace
    P: Regenerate man --- Perseverance of the saints.

    I am a simple man and I love simple aids for, and in the faith. The beauty of TULIP is like the beauty of the lilies of the field which Jesus compared with Solomon and his wisdom "in all his glory" --- what the wise cracks of human sovereignty and free will in all its glory of the fleshly mind.

    TULIP, Arminians and gownsmen usually set alight spontaneously.

    The more earthy its soil the more glorious the lily TULIP blooms.

     
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    steaver

    Under the New Covenant there is no difference, the called and the Chosen are the same. We see this in 1 Cor 1:23-28

    23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    Also I have a thread on calling where I go into more detail

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1736003#post1736003
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 6

    The Lords preaching in John 6 reveals the Teachings of Grace, or Tulip doctrines of His Gospel.

    If we reject His word, then we reject Him. Jn 12:48-49

    48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jesus here tells us that what He speaks Jn 6, are words that The Father commanded Him to say and to speak. These very words will Judge [those rejecting them] in the last day, The Day of Judgment.

    The Lord in Jn 6:44 emphasizes Total Depravity or inability of man when He said in vs 44

    44No man can come to me [in faith], except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The word can in the greek is the word:

    dynamai:


    to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

    2) to be able to do something

    3) to be capable, strong and powerful

    Now Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability, the resources, the state of mind to come [ which means believes] in Him.

    What can be more plainer ? He says a little further down in the same chapter Jn 6:64-65

    64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me[Believe], except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Judas could not believe in Him as the other disciples did, simply because it had not been given to Him to believe, and he could not believe in Him on his own.

    It must be [ because of inability] given to one to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

    29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    Jn 6:44 except the Father draws him, one cannot come ! The word draw is the greek word:

    helkō:


    to draw, drag off

    2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

    The word is used two ways in scripture, but in this verse it does not mean to be forcibly drawn or dragged against ones will, but it is used metaphorically, meaning being impelled, or lead by the inner spiritual power of Gods Grace. The will of the born again one has been changed, made spiritual, by the power of Grace, and so comes to pass what is written in PS 110:3a

    3Thy [chosen] people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

    That is in the day of His powerful Grace.

    But its also of note regarding the word draw in Jn 6:44 that it comes from the root word:

    haireō:


    to take for oneself, to prefer, choose

    2) to choose by vote, elect to office

    Simply put, those believing on Christ or coming to Him are those chosen to believe, those God had picked out.

    Isa says about Gods witnesses, which all believers are to some degree, notice:

    Isa 43:10

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    So unless a powerful work of Divine Grace takes place inwardly, no man can come or believe on Christ, they do not have the ability, nor the mind to. This is what Jesus taught !
     
  14. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Yes, I see this in 1 Cor. However, you quoted Jesus saying "many are called, but few are chosen". Who are these called who are not chosen and what are they called to do and why are they not chosen?
     
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am going to answer this question, but after that stay with the point of the thread, which is that Jesus taught election.

    In Matt when Jesus said many be called but few be chosen, He is speaking of The Call of Abraham, who became the Father of both National and Spiritual Israel, He would have both descendants according to the Flesh and according to Promise.

    The whole Nation was called into existence ,but only a remnant of that called Nation were Chosen to Salvation. Thats why its said only a remnant shall be saved of that Nation.

    Isa 1:9

    9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    Rom 9:27

    Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Rom 11:5

    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    All the rest of your questions are a rabbit trail, the point is that Jesus Teaches Election to salvation..
     
    #15 savedbymercy, Oct 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2011
  16. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    How does Gerhard E. know without a doubt that he is "elect?" Maybe TULIP is a trick of Satan.
     
  17. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only "limited" atomement is that it is limited to those who repent and call on the Lord for forgiveness and salvation. That is how God chooses who He will save--by our choosing to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's calling.
     
  18. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    In other words, you do not want to debate your postings, you just want to preach.

    So the "many be called" had no choice to be called and the chosen had no choice in being chosen. Ok, I see your pov, not that I have accepted it as accurate exegesis.

    I do believe in election by grace and I do believe in predesination. Afterall, it is written. However, I'm not sure that your conviction of how these truths are played out in real time life senarios is accurate.

    Paul also said, "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Ro 11:20.

    It appears that Paul is placing the blame on the persons for not believing, when according to your view, they could not possibly have believed.

    Paul also spent quite a bit of time trying to persuade his fellow Jews in hopes that they would believe and be saved. Not sure Paul would have spent so much time and with much sorrow on them if he thought himself that persuasion played no part in salvation. Paul would have known that all he need do is preach the word and those who God chose would galdly receive it, no persuading necessary.
     
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Scripture also states that God "blinded them", but I believe this is after they had a choice of receiving God's grace but rejected it.

    "[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Ro 9:22.

    I take from this scripture that God gave these people time to repent and believe but they hardened their hearts so God turned them over to their own demise.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...