Did paul changes his mind/view of jesus, or did God do that for him?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    was paul coming to Jesus as lord by act of his own free will, or didi God 'force' the issue upon him by his calling to be an Apostle?
     
  2. Benjamin

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    Was Paul a [​IMG] or not a [​IMG] ? Hmm, let me think [​IMG]
     
  3. Winman

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    Paul said he was not disobedient to Jesus, which implies he could have been disobedient if he had chosen so.

    Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

    What sense is there to tell Agrippa that he was not disobedient unless he had the option and ability to be disobedient?
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    cannot just assume the negative is even a viable option though!

    names will not be written out of book of Life NOT also says they can get rubbed out by God, just affirming they will not be!

    again, paul has NO intention of coming to Jesus, as he approvd Stephen being stoned to death, saw Jesus as false messiah, got what he deserved, so turning to Him last thing on his mind!

    Shows us that God intervened, and forced paul to accept Jesus was the lord, as God ordained that he was to be the Apsotle to gentiles, so did paul really have "free will", or a beautiful example of just how the irrestible grace of God saves even the worst of sinners!
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    Glad to see that your humility and smugness both still there!
     
  6. Winman

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    Why do you ask questions you seem to already know the answer for?

    I disagree completely with your view, it is meaningless to tell Agrippa he was not disobedient if he had no choice in the matter.

    That would be like being hit by a truck and saying you were not disobedient to get struck. Meaningless and nonsensical.
     
  7. kyredneck

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    How could anyone read the account in Acts 9 and believe that Paul was given a 'choice' in the matter. Paul was STRUCK DOWN, ARRESTED on the road to Damascus.

    Jonah was disobedient. But he did the will of the Lord regardless of whether he really wanted to or not. When it came down to it, final analysis, Jonah had no choice in the matter.

    Paul was not disobedient. He did the will of the Lord willingly. When it came down to it, final analysis, Paul had no choice in the matter either, he was separated from his mother's womb to preach the gospel to the nations .
     
  8. convicted1

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    Yup Brother Larry. God came to him and Paul did what God told him to do. He had just as much free will as Jonah had...
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    I actually agree with you on this, so this would make paul holding to a calvinistic view of salvation , based upon his own experience!
     
  10. convicted1

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    God told Paul what to do, and never asked him if he would do it.

    Same for Jonah...
     
  11. kyredneck

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    I implied nothing even remotely close to this.

    Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was not the birth from above, it was NOT regeneration, it was his conversion to Christianity. Paul sincerely believed he was doing God's work combatting the Christian cult, it was on the road to Damascus that he was corrected. Paul plainly says 'WHEN it was God's good pleasure to reveal His Son in me', and 'when' for Paul was on the road to Damascus.

    And Paul obeyed.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2014
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Praise God! :godisgood:
     
  13. Reformed

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    I would not phrase the question that way. There is no dispute that Paul obeyed Christ's command and entered the city (Acts 9:6). But does anyone really think Paul was not going to obey Christ's command? So, both things were in operation simultaneously; the sovereignty of God and the will of man.
     
  14. Winman

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    And Jonah did not obey at first. He had option, and he had ability, and at first he chose to run away from God.

    It makes no sense for Paul to say he was obedient to something that merely HAPPENED to him. Like I said earlier, this would be like saying you were obedient to getting run over by a truck.

    The very fact that Paul said he was not disobedient implies he had the option and ability to be disobedient.
     
  15. convicted1

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    Jonah ultimately did what God told him to do. He had no choice OTHER than to do. God showed him Who was boss. He repented, the fish vomitted him up, and Jonah went and did it. There was NO OTHER CHOICE for Jonah to make.


    He was obedient to what God told him to do. Again, Paul did what God TOLD him to do, not God asking him if he wanted to do it or not, "it's solely up to you Paul". God told him what to do, and by-georgie, he did it. Again, there was no choice...no door #1, door #2, or door #3...
     
  16. Benjamin

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    How do you know he had no other choice?! That is pure presupposition of God being "Deterministically" Sovereign. God "merely" influenced him their is NO evidence Jonah could not have still chosen of his free will to do otherwise.

    Yes, God is the boss, He is in Providentially Sovereign Control in the world, but that doesn't mean the human volition He gave to man in creation was violated. Try thinking influence and response...


    Again, how do you there was no other choices?! Just because Paul was obedient and did what God told him does not mean he didn't the ability NOT to be obedient.

    Granted that was "strong" influence but you have no bases to claim he had no other choice, none.

    BTW, I'm surprised at you if you don't hold to some type of free will (compatibility/soft determinism/something) and have gone hyper-deterministic in your theology. I hope you understand the theological consequences to that Neo-Calvinist position.
     
  17. webdog

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    Jonah had no other choice? He could have hardened his heart and remained fish food.

    I'm also getting that you now believe if we are told something, we will obey...yet the Bible is full of just the opposite. I recall Jesus telling a rich man to sell all of his possessions. How did that work out?

    At any rate to use Paul and Jonah as the basis for the salvation of everyone is foolish as they were specifically called out for a specific purpose.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    true, but this is the way we ALl came to jesusto be saved, as the Sovereignty of God was the basis for us having the will to come to him, correct?

    not ours first, nor co assisting each other here?
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    We ALL have that special calling to be the Ambassadors for jesus, and to be his witnesses, so think in that sense ALL of us are saved the same way and commissioned as they were!
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    giod chose both men for a specific task, and he already had determined that he would bring to pass His will in and thru them, just had to get them to go along with his plan!

    NEVER a "well, Jonah and paul are rejecting me, time to move to plan B now!"
     
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