Did the Son ask the Father to spare Him the agony of the cross?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by kyredneck, Jul 29, 2009.

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Was Christ requesting to avoid the cross or was He asking for something else?

  1. Yes; If it be possible, for His Father to spare him the agony of the cross

    23 vote(s)
    63.9%
  2. No; He was asking for something other.

    13 vote(s)
    36.1%
  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mt 26:39


    What was Christ asking for? Was this a show of His human side, in a moment of weakness, asking His Father to prevent Him from going through the coming hours of physical torture of the crucifixion? This is a prevalent take on the passage, and understandable. What human wouldn't dread such a thing?


    Or was He asking for something else?


    I think He was asking for something deeper than being spared the crucifixion.


    Would love to read comments on this.
     
  2. sag38

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    I take reading His request at face value. There's no indication of anything mystical or deeper.
     
  3. Amy.G

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    He asked so that we would know that there is no other way.
     
  4. Zenas

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    I voted "yes." I do think the "cup" from which He is praying to be spared contains a lot of theological significance we often overlook. But basically Jesus wanted to be spared the agony of the cross.

    I'm curious, kyredneck, what do you think it means?
     
  5. Aaron

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    I couldn't vote. It wasn't the physical suffering that frightened Christ. It was the curse He would bear. As it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That was not made clear in the poll.

    Yes, Christ asked if there be any other way within the Father's will to accomplish Redemption, that He be spared this cup.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    I'd like to read more comments from others before commenting. But I do think it goes much deeper than Him dreading the agony of the cross, AND, that He could have called it off at anytime:

    Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels? How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? Mt 26:53-54

    But how then could the scriptures be fulfilled if He called for those legions of angels? All that was happening at that very moment was fulfillment of scripture:


    In that hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a robber with swords and staves to seize me? I sat daily in the temple teaching, and ye took me not. But all this is come to pass, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples left him, and fled. Mt 26:55,56


    And the 'request' itself [v 39] that Jesus made to His Father was also the fulfillment of scripture in a huge way as will be seen.


    For some reason this makes me think of these incidents from the past:


    And Jehovah said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Jehovah repented of the evil which he said he would do unto his people. Ex 32:9-10,14

    and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt 3:9


    I believe God could have made a great nation out of Moses, or raised up children unto Abraham of those stones; and I believe He could have/would have sent twelve legions of angels to His rescue. But how then could the scriptures be fulfilled? He not only loved the Son and the Son loved Him. We were the apples of His eye too.
    __________________
     
  7. saturneptune

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    There was never any possibility of deviating from God's plan. Jesus knew what was facing Him, and He was pouring His heart out to the Father. I agree with Aaron. It was not the physical agony of the cross.

    Think about it. If I die in my sins, then the penalty is eternal seperatin from God and spending eternity in Hell. That is one person. Now, imagine the spiritual agony Jesus felt on the cross (which we cant begin to) the moment the Father put all His wrath on Jesus for everyone (or those to be saved, this is not a Calvin debate). I doubt our Savior even noticed the physical agony at that moment. This is an agony far beyond human understanding.
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Not one of the verses in the passages covering the time in Gethsemane speaks of Jesus the Christ. It was Jesus the man. We tend to forget that Jesus was fully man. As a man he was about to suffer the agony of the cross despite his innocence. So now, as a man, he pleads with His heavenly Father IF it be possible,,,,,,,,,IF it be possible.....He already kows it is impossible.....let this cup pass from me. Now Matthew in 26:42 he says, "O my Father, if this cannot pass away, except I drink it, thy will be done."
    Even as a whle man, Jesus was prepared to do the will of the Father,,,,,,,even unto death, death of the cross.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Deacon

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    I love to study the psalms, particularly those that Jesus quoted from the cross.
    They give us some insight regarding Christ's clear state of mind even in the midst of the terrible agony he suffered.

    One psalm in particular, Psalm 31 is interesting
    ("Into Your hand I commit my spirit")


    But I trust in you, O LORD;
    I say, “You are my God.”
    My times are in your hand;
    deliver me from the hand of my enemies and persecutors.
    Let your face shine upon your servant;
    save me in your steadfast love.
    Do not let me be put to shame, O LORD,
    for I call on you;
    let the wicked be put to shame;
    let them go dumbfounded to Sheol.
    Let the lying lips be stilled
    that speak insolently against the righteous
    with pride and contempt.
    O how abundant is your goodness
    that you have laid up for those who fear you,
    and accomplished for those who take refuge in you,
    in the sight of everyone!
    In the shelter of your presence you hide them
    from human plots;
    you hold them safe under your shelter
    from contentious tongues.
    Blessed be the LORD,
    for he has wondrously shown his steadfast love to me
    when I was beset as a city under siege.
    I had said in my alarm,
    “I am driven far from your sight.”
    But you heard my supplications
    when I cried out to you for help.

    Psalm 31:14-22 NRSV

    His statement is a statement indicating his trust in the Father no matter what happened.
    For believers, it provides encourgement that even in tough times when things seem to go wrong, (even unanswered prayer) God is still among us working out his will.

    Rob
     
  10. Rex77

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    Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Jesus mission was to seek and to save the lost , he knew that without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

    Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost


    His death and resurrection was essential for our salvation , but the forsaking of the Father for those 3 hours on the cross I would suggest was what he was asking the Father to forgo
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Hymn_Ten Thousand Angels

    ......i never even knew there was such a song untill recently; cool........


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jziHGn2V1E
    ----------------------------


    Ten Thousand Angels
    Words and Music by Ray Overholt


    Matthew 26:53
    "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father,
    and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"


    http://www.my.homewithgod.com/heaven...s2/angels.html


    They bound the hands of Jesus in the garden where He prayed;
    They led Him thro' the streets in shame.
    They spat upon the Savior so pure and free from sin;
    They said, "Crucify Him; He's to blame."


    He could have called ten thousand angels
    To destroy the world and set Him free.
    He could have called ten thousand angels,
    But He died alone, for you and me.

    Upon His precious head they placed a crown of thorns;
    They laughed and said, "Behold the King!"
    They struck Him and they cursed Him and mocked His holy name
    All alone He suffered everything.

    He could have called ten thousand angels
    To destroy the world and set Him free.
    He could have called ten thousand angels,
    But He died alone, for you and me.

    When they nailed Him to the cross, His mother stood nearby,
    He said, "Woman, behold thy son!"
    He cried, "I thirst for water," but they gave Him none to drink.
    Then the sinful work of man was done.


    He could have called ten thousand angels
    To destroy the world and set Him free.
    He could have called ten thousand angels,
    But He died alone, for you and me.

    To the howling mob He yielded; He did not for mercy cry.
    The cross of shame He took alone.
    And when He cried, "It's finished," He gave Himself to die;
    Salvation's wondrous plan was done.


    He could have called ten thousand angels
    To destroy the world and set Him free.
    He could have called ten thousand angels,
    But He died alone, for you and me.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    Amy G and Jim1999, posts well worth pondering.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Amy,I agree that it did have the affect of letting us know that there was no other way.

    IMO, if He WAS asking to circumvent the cross, He asked amiss; He asked for something that was not in accordance with the will of the Father, and I know He never did that. So I must conclude that something other was intended in that request.

    You see, I believe He was impeccable.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    The Son asked the Father to not leave Him in the grave...

    ...and was heard!

    Jim, the way I read this passage the cup DID pass from Him because His prayer was heard.

    Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

    Consider these prophetic utterances by the prophet David:


    4 He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21


    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 10


    1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?.....
    24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither hath he hid his face from him; But when he cried unto him, he heard. Ps 22


    9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? Ps 30


    17 Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol. Ps 31


    4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
    6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears. Ps 18


    16 He sent from on high, he took me; He drew me out of many waters.
    17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, And from them that hated me; for they were too mighty for me.
    18 They came upon me in the day of my calamity; But Jehovah was my stay.
    19 He brought me forth also into a large place; He delivered me, because he delighted in me.
    20 Jehovah hath rewarded me according to my righteousness; According to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. Ps 18

    Consider John's version of the same request:

    5 ........ glorify thou me .......with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Jn 17

    Consider Jonah as a type of Christ:

    40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Mt 12


    1 Then Jonah prayed unto Jehovah his God out of the fish`s belly.
    2 And he said, I called by reason of mine affliction unto Jehovah, And he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol cried I, And thou heardest my voice.
    3 For thou didst cast me into the depth, in the heart of the seas, And the flood was round about me; All thy waves and thy billows passed over me.
    4 And I said, I am cast out from before thine eyes; Yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
    5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul; The deep was round about me; The weeds were wrapped about my head.
    6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed upon me for ever: Yet hast thou brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.
    7 When my soul fainted within me, I remembered Jehovah; And my prayer came in unto thee, into thy holy temple.
    8 They that regard lying vanities Forsake their own mercy.
    9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that which I have vowed. Salvation is of Jehovah.
    10 And Jehovah spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. Jonah 2



    [but that ain't all, there's more; there's a judicial angle to this also.]
     
  15. Jim1999

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    Don't forget to read the last chapter of Jonah......Read about his reaction to that which God had done with the Ninevites. They repented and Jonah was angry....He od, he prayed, I did what you asked, I did your will and they repented..I knew they would do that and it wasn't right. I wanted them to suffer........It is God's will that was being done; notwhat Jonah wanted....

    Now continue using Jonah as a type of Jesus, and we have Jesus (not the Christ) praying, IF it be possible let this cup (death) pass from me.......He, Jesus, was praying the truth. He did not want to suffer and die. He wanted to live, but he also wanted above all to live or die within God's will. The will is the ultimate pleasure for all humans.

    I really believe we have to remove the Christ from this Jesus and keep him as a total man for God's will to be fulfilled.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    I believe the passage in MT 12 clearly 'points' to Jonah as a type of Christ in the grave, but the simile ends there.

    Yes, I believe He was in great dread of what was coming. I don't think He was asking to avoid the cross though. He had never known anything but existence. Period. He had always been. Now He was on the verge of death and He was asking His Father to judge righteously and not leave Him in that state.

    23 who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2
     
  17. blackbird

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    I'm on Aaron's side of the fence here

    We need to realize that there was fixing to be a "rondevue"(sp) of the two worlds---the seen world in which we live and the unseen world were God is---and the "shock" factor of the two worlds meeting was(and still is) beyond human comprehension-------the judgment of two worlds was upon Jesus-----it went beyond the Roman whip---what Jesus was faceing was God's whip----noone has ever faced God's whip before--Jesus was the first and only one to feel that whip!!!

    All of the fury of God's eternal judgment was place upon Jesus in a finite period of time---thus He suffered in a finite period of time all of the fury you would have suffered in an infinite period of time!!!
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I agree completely here with kyredneck, and this verse that he quotes is strong proof for our position. Jesus was not praying to be delivered from the cross but to be delivered from death there in the garden. When the sweat mixed with blood came out, that was evidence of a rare condition called hematidrosis. It is entirely possible to die from this condition, so Jesus could have died in the garden during his prayer.

    For me the strongest proof that He was not asking to be saved from dying on the cross is that He would then have made Himself a false prophet! Remember that He Himself had prophesied His own death on the cross! So if He were delivered from the cross He would become a false prophet. It is extremely hard for me to believe that Jesus could wish that for Himself.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Outstanding point! THANK YOU JOHN!

    Consider the context of this passage also:

    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. Jn 12:27

    I happen to think the passage fully supports the notion that He indeed was NOT asking to be saved from the cross.
     
  20. Tom Bryant

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    So are you saying that at that moment Satan could have over-ruled the plan and Word of God and made the Scripture about the method of Christ's death incorrect?

    I think both views have some issues.
     

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