Didn't the curse prevent overpopulation?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/05/11/satan-the-fall-good-evil-overpopulation

    With the recent Nye / Ham debate being hot, I think one aspect that is not touched on between evolutionists (theistic and atheistic) and creationists is the role of death and population pre and post fall. I keep hearing that the earth would have been overpopulated by plant and animal life if there was no death before the fall, but I think such an argument is faulty as it views data through a naturalistic and current post fall lens. Just because reproduction happens one way today does not necessitate it equally happened that way pre fall, nlr would it necessarily remained that way had there been no fall. We know there wont be reproduction on the New Earth, there is no reason a non sin stained initial Earth would have been different. God didn't create seeds and eggs, He created animals and plants.

    Thoughts?
     
    #1 webdog, Feb 6, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2014
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Excellent, interesting discussion topic. :thumbsup:

    I agree with you, God's command in Genesis 1:28 to "be fruitful and multiply" was undoubtedly mitigated by Genesis 3:16's curse that
    "I will greatly multiply
    Your pain in childbirth,
    In pain you will bring forth children ... "

    Though it isn't apparent that children were born in Eden, it appears both passages suggest it was possible for that to have happened, and had The Fall not occurred, it seems entirely possible that the corld would have been filled. But does that mean would it have been overpopulated?

    Earthly concerns arise from a world that is fallen, a world troubled by war, famine, drought, storm, and disease. Is it realistic to superimpose concerns in such a world over a perfect, God-driven world? No. The question isn't regarding a fallen world, but that perfect, God-driven world, a world without sin, a world benefiting daily from expressive, well-balanced natural laws under the care and oversight of a munificent and all-powerful God. No desert, no wilderness, no uninhabitable, non-arable land, limitless resources, never-ending bounty. That world would never want for anything, and even if it did fill to capacity, our God would have had a plan to account for that as well.

    The question comes from the modern, fallen mindset, and as such is invalid when discussing a world that would be completely sold out to God's provision, love, fairness and balance.
     
  3. InTheLight

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    I've never heard the theory put forth that the earth would have been overpopulated before the Fall. Was that touched on in the debate?

    Are you suggesting that human reproduction before the Fall would not have occurred?

    I hold to the possibility that there was animal death before the Fall, but not human death, so that would take care of any animal overpopulation before the Fall.

    (I started to read the AIG article but had to quit because of the blatant assumptions made with no basis in scripture.)
     
  4. webdog

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    Not part of the debate, but has been brought up since.


    No, the OP is dealing with animal overpopulation, the view many if not most evolutionists hold to if death entered the world through sin.

    Your view is the one being addressed then.

    Like? Isn't it also an assumption the earth would have been overpopulated if there were no animal death pre fall? The only assumption I get from the article is the fact death entered the world through sin, and that's not even an assumption, its a fact as that is just what Scripture teaches. Assumption would be Romans 5 dealing with only human death.
     
  5. Aaron

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    The Fall was a reason for the creation of the earth.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    big fallacy that earth is right now over populated, as its just like Darwinism and global warming, bad science!

    The earth right now has enough resources and space on it to accomodate several Billions more, but problem is humanity will not allow for developement in many nations, due to bad government and cultural decisions made!
     
  7. InTheLight

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    Like this:
    Pay close attention to what God said: fill the earth, not overpopulate it. The command was to populate until the earth was full, and then reproduction would cease.

    "Reproduction would cease".....hmmm....not seeing that in my Bible.

    Yes, it is an assumption.

    An honest reading of Romans 5:12 shows it is only dealing with human death. It does not preclude it applying to animals but it is clear that only humans are mentioned.
     
  8. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher
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    Webdog

    Your posted question suggests that reproduction of 'life' was changed by the curse following the Fall.

    Other than a rather tenuous explanation, is there anything to support that idea? I can't think of anything to suggest such a change in the life-cycles of any form of life on Earth. (Not that my knowledge is a guarantee, but there ought to be something somewhere, I should think.)
     
  9. preachinjesus

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    As I've seen this work out...most folks appreciate the act of conception more than the pain of the birth...


    Ministry experience here folks...
     
  10. webdog

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    Everything was changed in the entire universe by the curse. Once death entered and the introduction of carnivorous behavior, naturally it would follow an increase in this new food supply would be needed.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    How so? wasn't the earth alreasdy aprt of the will of God to be created, as he had already purposed to have manking created, so we would all need a place to reside upon, right?
     
  12. InTheLight

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    Do you see this change in carnivorous behavior occurring immediately, as if a switch were thrown from OFF to ON? Or would it have been a gradual changeover?
     
  13. webdog

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    That's a good question. That might be when micro evolution was introduced.
     
  14. Van

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    We have had numerous threads rehashing whether plant and animal death occurred before the fall. Paul spoke of plant life, and certainly if you pull up a carrot and eat it, the plant dies.

    Bottom line, discussions of the merits of this speculation over and against that speculation are fairly fruitless.
     
  15. webdog

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    Plants don't have a soul in the way animals and humans are said to have in scripture.
     
  16. percho

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    Do animals and humans have a soul or are animals and humans, souls, living when sustained by the breath of the spirit of life from God supplied to the cells by the blood.

    Thus animals with the blood there of could be used for type of atonement until the one came of whom the anit type thereof would shed his blood for, the atonement? As in.

    For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev. 17:11

    Now let me ask man, the living soul created in the image of God, can and will be resurrected from the dead, and judged, because of the coming of the Christ. In Adam, all dead and in Christ, all alive.

    Will the animals (souls) also be resurrected from the dead?

    If not for the atonement and the Christ having been raised from the dead because of Adam dying thou dost die. Him and everyone else. That is the death Adam brought to all men for all have sinned.

    And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

    Was Adam created a little lower than the angels, therefore subject to death
    as stated in the word of God or was he created immortal and fell unto being
    mortal?
     
  17. Van

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    So God's very good creation had plant death but not animal or human death before the fall?
     
  18. webdog

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    I don't think Scripture refers to plants dying. That might be a term reserved for those with a soul.
     
  19. Van

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    John 12:24, "“I assure you: Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains by itself. But if it dies, it produces a large crop. (HCSB)

    I know there is a debate about whether animals have a soul like the human soul, but many scholars belief the idea was animals have a physical life force (equated with breathing.) It was not within the mindset of folks living in the first century or before that plants breathed.

    But certainly they considered plants to be alive, for example a tree would have a lifetime.
     
  20. Van

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    How could plant death exist in God's very good creation if physical death is the result of the Fall? The idea must be that spiritual death was caused by the Fall, Adam's iniquity caused a separation between God and mankind. Those that try to take it further enter the realm of speculation.
     

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