...die in your sins....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Jul 9, 2014.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Open for discussion.

    Compare:

    Ezekiel 3:18. "When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand."

    Ezekiel 3:20. "(When) a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand."

    Ezekiel 33:6. "(If) the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand."

    Ezekiel 33:8. "When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand."

    With:

    21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8

    Does 'die in your sins' unequivocally signify eternal consequences, i.e., bound for hell?
     
  2. percho

    percho
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    Could it be that all men die in their sin but then the faith came, the resurrected Christ, by which all men could be made alive and he that is made alive and believes shall not see death, that is the second death?

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27

    That would mean even Enoch died but because of the faith that came, he will be made alive and shall not see the second death because God was pleased by the faith that came.
     
    #2 percho, Jul 9, 2014
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  3. JeremyV

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    "Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
    (Joh 8:21-24)

    I think the key is in v. 24: "...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." We see here that, at least in the New Testament) dying in ones sins happens if one dies without believing in Jesus. As salvation is predicated on this: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."(Joh 3:16), we must assume that dying in sin means that the person is not saved. So yes, from this alone we must understand that to die in ones sins is an idiom for dying unsaved.


    The problem I have with this is that in Ezekiel the dying in sin seems to be condition so that one needn't die in sin if they das listened to the warnings of the one that should have been preaching to them.

    You do bring up a good point. How were people before the coming of Christ saved?
     
    #3 JeremyV, Jul 9, 2014
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  4. kyredneck

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    Take note, there is no ‘invitation’ contained in the above. It’s all matter of fact threefold stated, “ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins”, “ I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." To this same AUDIENCE later in this same discourse Christ matter of factly states, “Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.”, “He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

    Ezekiel was matter of factly told, “But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me”. Moses was matter of factly told beforehand that Pharaoh would not hearken.

    John 3:16 also is not an invitation but is a statement of fact.

    You say that “dying in sin means that the person is not saved” (I assume by that you mean unregenerate), I disagree. Consider the one in 1 Cor 5:5. I believe he was in very real danger of ‘dying in his sins’ while still yet bound for heaven.
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jul 10, 2014
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  5. kyredneck

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    The question of the OP was "Does 'die in your sins' unequivocally signify eternal consequences, i.e., bound for hell?"

    Maybe the question should be 'Does 'die in your sins' unequivocally apply only to the unregenerate'? I don't think so.

    Is it possible for God's redeemed born from above children to 'die in their sins'? I say yes, they can.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Jul 10, 2014
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  6. JeremyV

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    I fear we have come to the point where our disagreement cannot be resolved without delving into the issue of Calvinism. I, not being a Calvinist, would read his as meaning that the cannot understand for their hardheartedness (symbolized here by gin children of Satan). You, apparently a Calvinist, interpret this to refer to there state of being unregenerate. Neither view of which is derived directly from these scriptures but from an entire system of interpretation.

    I agree that these are all matter of fact statements, but that hardly proves your point. God knows everything even before it happens. Just because he declares that something will happen doesn't mean that there wasn't a choice in the matter. It simply means that he knows what that choice will be.

    I have considered it and find no reason to think that this has anything to do with "dying in sin". Instead John 8 clearly describes dying in sin as being the same thing as dying in unbelief (having never believed):

    "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
    (Joh 8:24)


    For this I will have to ask, how can one who has received grace die in sin? Does not grace cover all sin? If we are in sin and sin leads to death, how can we escape eternal damnation? If we cannot then how are we even under grace? The concept you advocate here simply makes no sense to me.
     
  7. percho

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    I, like you also do not think so. I think we all die in our sins and praise God to be made alive in Christ.
     
  8. percho

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    I find the following thought interesting.

    Adam was told that, when he ate (sin?), dying he would die. Is dying the judgement for sin?

    I ask for; Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: appears to state death was appointed and judgement would follow death. Why would there be a need for any judgement?

    I believe the appointment of death was made before the first man Adam was created. Why? Because it was already determined the Christ, the Son of God, the Son of Man, would die. The question was would the Son be obedient unto death? Was his obedience necessary in order for man to live again following death? Did the Son learn obedience through sufferings, did he become obedient?

    We all die in sin. Jesus the firstborn of the virgin Mary was sinless. How difficult was it for him to remain sinless?

    I say the following verse is concerning Jesus, the son of Mary, Jesus, the Son of God.

    Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Hebrews 12:4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3

    Would Jesus the son of Mary have died had he not learned and become obedient unto death even the death of the cross?
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    The OT quotes refer to sinners getting the judgement in this life, being executed/punished for their crimes, so related to physical death in this life but jesus referred to eternal consequences of missing him as messiah, as spiritual death!
     
  10. JeremyV

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    You bring up an interesting point. First, we have to ask what kind of death God was referring to when he warned Adam. From Revelation 20 we see that there are at least two kinds of death, the first death (presumably the death of our bodies) and the second death (the lake of fire).

    If God was speaking of the first death in Genesis, then nothing could have died up to that point. I find this difficult to believe. As a teacher I had once asked, if Adam had accidentally stepped on a bug would it not have died? It makes more sense to me that God is referring to the second death here. If this is truly the case, then I believe dying is the judgment for sin.

    Because here the author of Hebrews is referring to the first death, which is not a judgment but the way things were designed. After that we are judged and will either be judged worthy of eternal life in the new creation or the second death.

    I am not sure I would use the term "appointment". It is certain that God knew that man would fall even before the creation.

    I do not know why we need to say that there was a question about Jesus' dying. Just as God knew that man would fall beforehand he also knew that Jesus would succeed.

    I am not sure how much Jesus had to learn. At age 12 he was confounding the religious teachers. He was the word of God incarnate. He was their before man was even created. He saw it all and made it all. What did he not already know?
     
  11. Iconoclast

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  12. Yeshua1

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  13. kyredneck

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    Thanks for commenting Icon, but I respectfully disagree that it is the ONLY meaning. On a recent thread now closed I stated:

    “…..Orthodox Preterism is nothing less than a sound hermeneutical tool that adheres closely to a very basic rule of scripture interpretation:

    The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. - Charles Hodge….”

    Consider the implications of these:

    ….. I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15:24

    These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10:5,6

    I suggest to you that everything that Christ had to say in His office as ‘The Prophet’ to Israel (just as Ezekiel and all the other prophets) should first be screened through this lens of ‘audience relevance’ to determine what is the immediate application to ‘the fold of Israel’ (Jn 10:16) of ‘that generation’ to whom the end of the age was to violently come upon. I believe this generation to be the very same ‘flock of slaughter’ of Zech 11 to which Christ fed in parables with the intent that they NOT understand.

    Through the lens of audience relevance:

    A.W. Pink:

    “…"Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins" (John 8:21). The word "again" looks back to John 7:33, 34, where on a previous occasion Christ had made a similar statement. "I go my way" signifies I shall very shortly leave you. It was a solemn word of warning. "And ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins." Christ here addressed these Pharisees as the representatives of the nation, and looked forward to the sore trials before it. In but a few years, Israel would suffer an affliction far heavier than any they had experienced before; and when that time came, they would seek the delivering help of their promised Messiah, but it would be in vain. Having refused the Light they would continue in the darkness. Having despised the Savior, they should "die in their sins." Having rejected the Son of God, it would be impossible for them to come whither He had gone….”


    John Gill:

    “…… Though perhaps no more than a general faith is here intended, for want of which, and their rejection of Jesus, as the Messiah, the Jews suffered temporal ruin; and had they but believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and true Messiah, they had been saved from that temporal destruction which came upon their nation, city, and temple; but not believing this in a general and notional, way, they perished, as is here threatened…”

    So we see, these two, Pink and Gill (and there are many others), at least allowed for an immediate interpretation of temporal ruin in lieu of eternal consequences in Jn 8:21-24.

    I suggest to you that there is a certain amount of synonymy of phrases/idioms concerning this ‘dying in your sins’ to be found in the gospels, a few examples:

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3:7

    for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. Mt 24:21

    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13

    Well, there WERE those in this audience believing, vv. 30-32.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Jul 11, 2014
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    You know, I’m looking at your profile and I see you’ve already been complaining to the moderators about conditions here on the BB and I have to wonder if this is just a deliberate attempt on your part to derail this thread ('thread drift' as you call it) and get it tossed to the CvA forum when it has nothing to do with CvA, and I'm already gun shy from a recent infraction I got because of folks covertly complaining, so yeah, we’ve come to an end of our dialog.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/converse.php?u=45467&u2=4535

    Would you happen to have 'an axe to grind' with the BB for some reason?
     
    #14 kyredneck, Jul 11, 2014
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  15. kyredneck

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    True to form Yesh, you never build a case from scripture. You will only parrot the status quo.

    Think there could be some synonymy between 'die in your sins' and 'sin unto death'?

    If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request. 1 jn 5:16
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    kyredneck
    I do not mind a disagreement with you or any who offers a scriptural case as the basis of disagreement:thumbs:

    [/QUOTE]

    Thank you for these very fine quotes which have some validity for sure...they are very learned men and I have used them in times past:thumbsup:

    My statement was based on just a simple look at the passage that goes like this....



    12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

    14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

    15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

    16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

    17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

    20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

    21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

    23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


    He is speaking in a context of salvation...these men do not believe

    they are still dead in Adam....in the realm of sin and death

    My view here is simple...if they are dead men walking...rejecting Jesus right here as he speaks to them......and they die in that condition...what keeps them from Second death at the white throne judgement???

    Where or on what basis would they not eternally perish?

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    Jesus had spoken of being the light of the world and they rejected Him in vs 12-13.....

    Now if you are thinking of the sin unto death...physical death... that might be true if the people believed savingly, but were physically cut-off by God's discipline.

    Kyred....I believe this passage can be used by way of application to challenge unsaved persons in this same way.....they are outside of Christ, condemned , with no hope in the world......Jesus is the only hope of sinners anywhere at anytime. If they reject him while in this body...He will reject them for sure...
     
    #16 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
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  17. JeremyV

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    I have not bean complaining about the BB to anyone. I have no problem with the BB in any respect. I very much like it here. I was simply asking a moderator about a possible discussion I have been considering starting. This would be a serious discussion on the issue of Calvinism and has nothing to do with any other thread I have been involved in. "Thread drift" was his term, not mine. Before you start making accusations perhaps you should consider getting all the facts.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Would say that is NOT referring to loss of spitual life, but that one couyld either commit a sin and face dealth penalty, or else could be judged and killed off by God as chaistisement, but still would be saved!
     
  19. kyredneck

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    In v 12 perhaps, other than that there is nothing being proffered in the passages you provided, Christ is stating the situation as a matter of fact. And by ‘salvation’ you mean ‘regeneration’ and not the deliverance for His sheep in this temporal realm as I see it.

    Christ stated very plainly why some in the audience did not believe. But that’s not what this thread is about.

    There’s no doubt that these you are describing perished eternally.

    I suppose these passages…:

    21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8

    ….are proof texts to evangelicals that hold to gospel regeneration, and I’m pretty sure that this is the lens through which you are viewing them. I’m guessing also you hold that those believing in vv. 30-32 became regenerate right then and there on the spot instantaneously because of/along with their belief.

    Please don’t be offended and allow me the liberty to do some paraphrasing in order to make a point and ask some rhetorical questions for you to ponder. No need to even answer the questions if you don’t want. What I understand you to believe Christ is telling this audience:

    21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall go to hell: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall go to hell: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall go to hell. Jn 8

    Consider another warning of ‘the sword to come’, prophesied by Peter, that I believe perfectly reiterates what Christ is actually saying in Jn 8:

    And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

    Do you also insert eternal consequences into that one and would your paraphrase be:

    And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall go to hell?

    Another warning of ‘the sword to come’ given by The Prophet Himself:

    1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood [the soldiers of] Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom [the soldiers garrisoned in] the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13

    Again, do you insert eternal consequences into this, and would your paraphrase be:

    1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood [the soldiers of] Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner go to hell.
    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom [the soldiers garrisoned in] the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise go to hell. Lu 13?

    Another warning of ‘the sword to come’ given by John the Baptist:

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3:7

    Once again, do you insert eternal consequences into this, and would your paraphrase be:

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from going to hell? Mt 3:7

    And we’re kinda getting off track here, and duty calls, I’ve got to go tend to some real life stuff for now.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Jul 11, 2014
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  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    And you have my sincere apologies if I misrepresented you. When you're discussing reporting infractions with the mods (there seems to be a rash of that going on around here these days) it's easy to get the impression that's what you're getting prepared to do.

    Question: Should someone offend you, are you likely to warn them up front first before reporting the infraction, or not?
     

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