Difference between a false convert and disobedient brethren

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    1 Cor 3 and Matt 7 speak about the judgment of Christ. 1 Cor 3 is a judgment for believers, and Matt 7 for false converts. MacArthur, Comfort, and Lordship types automatically assume because one is in the flesh and has no visible fruit they are a false convert, and while this may be true, its not the entire story. Perhaps many that are labeled false converts are disobedient and flesh driven believes whom will have no reward in Heaven, at least this is the message that Erwin Lutzer, and Charles Stanley have preached in their books. Perhaps we may never know this side of eternity on the difference between the two.

    But I know in my own situation there was a time when I was big in self-help, and walked in the flesh. Perhaps I would have been labeled a false convert in a Lordship church, but the Holy Spirit has grown me, and I strive to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. My works do not earn my salvation, as they only provide evidence for it. Every true believer will have works (other than those that accept Christ on their deathbed) but works are not what saves someone. I lacked works and fruit in the past as I was in the flesh and not the spirit.
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Nov 20, 2012
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  2. 12strings

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    I agree. I think 1 Cor. 3 presents a huge problem for those who would say that there is no such thing as a fleshly Christian. Here's a summary of the words used to describe the people Paul addresses in this chapter:

    Bad: not spiritual, people of the flesh, infants, still of the flesh, jealousy & strife, behaving only in a human way, will suffer loss...
    Good: In Christ, God's field, God's building, will be saved, God's temple, God's spirit dwells in you, holy, you are Christ's.

    It would take quite the hermeneutical gymnastics to say that these words describe 2 different sets of people.
     
  3. Van

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    All of us professing Christians need to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. If we have been born again, we will find evidence. The bible does not teach we should examine someone else's fruit, but our own. We are not to try to uproot those among us whose faith God did not credit as righteousness. We are to continue to witness, with words and examples of Godly living such that they will come to their senses and repent and fall on their knees and actually devote their life to Christ.
     
  4. The Archangel

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    In the book What Is A Healthy Church by Mark Dever, a good explanation is given (I think it's on p. 40). Here's my paraphrase:

    A false convert will take sin's side against God.

    A true Christian who is being disobedient will, ultimately, take God's side against sin...even against his or her own sin.

    The Archangel
     
  5. evangelist6589

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    Thats the position that Lutzer and Stanley take. I heard Lutzer clearly speak against Lordship salvation on a recent podcast. People often attack Stanley but ignore Lutzer, as Stanley is a far bigger name, and also a more gifted communicator. However I think Lutzer is deeper and a little more academic.

    WOTM Only advocates on Facebook often put up Eternal Security by Stanley as a dart board to attack. I then reply that Lutzer has more deeper and theological books of the same subject in which he does use the sinners prayer. The response usually silences them, as they have nothing to say.
     
  6. evangelist6589

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    Hmm interesting to think about. Yeah its a complex subject thats for sure.
     
  7. 12strings

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    I have read this in Greg Gilbert's book "what is the Gospel" as well. I believe it is correct, though I can't think of specific Bible verses to support it, more general principles...

    However, I think the word ULTIMATELY is key, in that a Christian may, for a time, act in a fleshly, unspiritual way (per 1 Cor. 3.) It seems that a person may temporarily act in "merely a human way" who does actually have God's spirit in them...1 Cor. speaks of both.
     
  8. Herald

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    The marked difference between a false convert and disobedient brethren is repentance. Disobedient brethren typically repent of their sins are restored. Have you ever wondered why David was called a man after God's own heart? David was a terrible sinner. He committed adultery; conspired to murder; tempted God (census); and was a wretched father. Still he was called a man after God's own heart. Why? Because David had a tender heart and repented when faced with his sin (2 Samuel 12). The man who claims Christ and is incapable of repentance is a fraud.
     
  9. psalms109:31

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    2 Timothy 4

    4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

    Hebrews 5 :
    11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

    Hebrews 6:

    1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[Or from useless rituals] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites,[Or about baptisms] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.


    We do need to repent turn to God instead of ourselves and what we can do. When we sin we hurt so much our message to others and others and we don't know how far it may reach. We are so knit together so what we do does effect others bad or good. We are to mature and move on to not practice sin and being able to teach others to turn to God. We ought to be teachers not having to be taught elementary teaching all over again nor deny what has brought us to maturity the precious milk of His word.

    The meaning of the parable of the good Samaritan for John Calvin was, instead, that "compassion, which an enemy showed to a Jew, demonstrates that the guidance and teaching of nature are sufficient to show that man was created for the sake of man. Hence it is inferred that there is a mutual obligation between all men." In other writings, Calvin pointed out that people are not born merely for themselves, but rather "mankind is knit together with a holy knot ... we must not live for ourselves, but for our neighbors."
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Nov 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2012
  10. evangelist6589

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    This is a very good illustration. Yes so people whom say they are saved but have no relationship are probably false converts.
     
  11. jbh28

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    Great post and very much correct.
     
  12. saturneptune

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    This goes hand in hand with can you tell if someone is truly saved or not. To determine the difference between the two catagories in the thread, as much as is humanly possible, one would have to see their life over an EXTENDED period of time, not one point in time or a one time incident.
     

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