Difference Between Pre and Post Law

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by saturneptune, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    There was another thread that touched on the subject of how sinful man is held accountable for his actions before the Ten Commandments and after. It is a complex issue, and the purpose of the thread is learning for me. It seems the bottom line is that we are held accountable for our sins, but for a different reason than those who lived before the Ten Commandments. The final result is the same, but I would appreciate knowing what you all think is the basis of being our being guilty before the Lord before the Ten Commandments were written by the Lord.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    First the law was not given to make man sinful. All it did was make it easier to point out what was already true. Based on Romans 2 man does not need the written law to understand that certain things are evil and every person at some point violates their own conscience making us all guilty. In other words they do things that they feel is wrong. They will be judged for those things they did that violated their conscience.
     
  3. saturneptune

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    Thank you for that. This is an academic question, I know, and the purpose is for me or others to understand better. Actually, the thread I mentioned not only made a difference in pre and post law, but also, in original sin and continuing sin. In the final analysis, sin is sin. Romans is a wonderful book in so many ways.
     
  4. Herald

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    Prior to the codified Law of Moses (the Ten Commandments) there was the moral law of God. This law was basically the knowledge of right from wrong. The first command that God gave to man was to Adam, in the Garden:

    When Adam ate of the the fruit of the tree he did reap the benefits, albeit negative ones. He was able to distinguish between innocence and guilt; shame and respect.

    Prior to eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve's nakedness was not a source of shame. Their moral capabilities were now open to influences other than innocence; and considering that they had broken God's command they were now fallen from innocence and held captive to the base part of their morality. This is why no one who lived prior to the Law being codified could claim exemption from God's moral law. That law was innate within every man. Unfortunately that knowledge contained all the vice and none of the benefit of understanding the law of God. It is only when man's nature is changed through regeneration that he is able to once again choose righteously.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Difference Between Pre and Post Law?


    "Pre"= before

    "Post"= after

    DUH!!! :laugh: :D :smilewinkgrin: :wavey: J/K!!
     
  6. Scarlett O.

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    LONG before there ever was a nation of Israel and LONG before the law was ever born, murder was a sin and it still is. Adultery, lying, cruel treatment of others, homosexuality, and more were sins from the beginning and are still sins today. It was a sin when Cain killed Abel. It was a sin when Rueben had sex with his father's concubine. It was a sin when the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah participated in homosexuality. It was a sin when Abraham and Sarah lied to two different kings and led them to believe that they were not married. It was a sin when Joseph's brothers allowed their anger at their father to torment them to a hatred of their brother. All of this took place centuries BEFORE the law ever existed.

    How could they be sins when there was no law?

    Because of God's Holy Nature. We are to emulate Him because we are made in His image. He charges us to “be holy as I (God) am holy”. God does not murder, steal, lie, and covet. He cannot be cruel, unjust, unmerciful, or unloving. He will not turn his back on his people and seek out another people to love. Ergo, we are to be just like Him as close as we can.

    The Holy standard of God's Nature runs like a golden thread from out of Himself into the universe before He said "let there be light", into the Creation, the Garden, and it threaded it's way OUT of the Garden, into the nation of Israel, the law, and it threaded it's way OUT of the law and INTO the New Testament and beyond and His Holy Standard still abides today.

    We are to avoid sexual sins and sins of mistreating others and disrespecting God NOT because they are written down in the book of Leviticus, but because these sins represent what is opposed to the holy nature of God.

    Some things in the Levitical law pertained only to Israel. They were very peculiar laws that were to keep the nation of Israel separate and distinct from other political entities. The church is not a body politic. Christians are charged with being holy like God is holy.
     
    #6 Scarlett O., Jun 11, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  7. AresMan

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    I would say that there is an eternal moral law of God that underlies all the "dispensations" or "covenants." God can express His moral law in different codified ways, but the underlying moral law of God never changes.

    Under any given express covenant, God would hold His people accountable for their breaking of it in this life. However, the actual afterlife judgment is based on breaking the eternal moral law, exposing the problem with their heart.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    What specific codified laws are expressed here?
    How much is good enough? How many people?
    This is a violation of God's eternal moral law that may be expressed in some specifics in different covenants, but these are rather general statements.

    Christ alone is the fulfillment of God's eternal moral law. Only Christ has kept it. All are guilty of breaking God's moral law. All who receive grace and mercy do so because Christ is their Substitute. He bore their punishment, and He kept the law perfectly.
     
  8. kyredneck

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    There is some truth in thie way you've worded this, but, you've evidently missed the whole point and real import of Ro 2 (1-3 actually), which is specifically referring to bona fide DOERS of the law, i.e., 'love workth no ill towards his neighbor, love therefore is the fulfilment of the law (Ro 13:10). Those doers of the law (not A law but THE law) showed by their actions THE law written upon their hearts.

    I'll be happy to 'flesh this out' (as some here like to say) with you if you wish.

    [edit to add] I'll go ahead and 'flesh it out' some anyway:

    Throughout Romans, Jews and Gentiles are lumped together while contrasting them at the same time, especially in chapters one through three. Much of chapter one is condemning the idolatrous Gentiles, while much of chapter two condemns the self righteous Jews who judge the Gentiles from their law while being guilty of the same transgressions as the Gentiles who have not the law. But God is no respecter of persons, and it's not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law that are just before Him:

    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
    9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

    So then, it didn't matter whether one was of Abraham or not, or of the Mosaic Covenant and had been a hearer of the law or not. It mattered only what deeds you had done, whether they were good or evil, and these deeds came by nature of the heart. This is why the third chapter opens with the question:

    What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? 3:1

    ...which is answered here:

    Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. 3:2

    who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 9:4,5

    Take note, eternal life was NOT one of the advantages the Jew had over the Gentile.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Jun 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2012
  9. freeatlast

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    Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but I stand on what I wrote as it agrees with scripture.
    ....Based on Romans 2 man does not need the written law to understand that certain things are evil and every person at some point violates their own conscience making us all guilty. In other words they do things that they feel is wrong. They will be judged for those things they did that violated their conscience.....
     
  10. kyredneck

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    Your's is the common ATROCIOUS skewing of scripture here. Your preconceptions drive your gross misinterpretation.

    Just how do you think those came to have the work of THE LAW written in their hearts?
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    The moral law ,the ten commandments were in effect before they were written in stone. Man as an image bearer of God is to reflect this.
    Though man is fallen, his conscience still bears this imprint of the 10 commandments.....even though the natural man twists it.rom2 ;1-15

    Through new birth the decalogue is placed in our new heart,and eph 4 explains how our minds are being renewed by this law keeping heart.
    All men will have to answer to God's law and have to keep it 100% perfectly.

    If they cannot they will perish in their sins.
    Many will have trusted in Jesus to keep the law on their behalf,by God given faith and enjoy the heavenly peace and rest in Him.
    That is what we are make known to a dying world.


    19 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;


    20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

    21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,

    22 and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,

    23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

    24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,

    25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --

    26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus.

    27 Where then [is] the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith:

    28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.

    29 The God of Jews only [is He], and not also of nations?

    30 yes, also of nations; since one [is] God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith.

    31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.
     
  12. freeatlast

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    The bible does not tell us, it simply states the fact that they do.
     
    #12 freeatlast, Jun 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2012
  13. kyredneck

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    WRONG. AGAIN. We've indeed been told:

    the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:8
     
  14. freeatlast

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    Nice passage but in regards to the OP. First the law was not given to make man sinful. All it did was make it easier to point out what was already true. Based on Romans 2 man does not need the written law to understand that certain things are evil and every person at some point violates their own conscience making us all guilty. In other words they do things that they feel is wrong. They will be judged for those things they did that violated their conscience.
     
  15. kyredneck

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    You are so totally missing the import of this passage (but you're with the many on this also); the work of the law written in the heart in v 15 is synonymous with the circumcision of the heart in v 29.

    Verses 13-15 are ALSO describing those who are JEWS INWARDLY.

    All this leads up to the question of 3:1:

    "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?"
     
  16. HankD

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    There is one defining act apart from the law which condemns us because it shows forth our nature:

    We love darkness rather than light.

    John 3
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    Acts 26
    15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    In Acts 26
    Darkness equals the power of satan.
    Light equals God and His power.​

    We all put our stamp of approval on what we are because (apparently) we love what we are and the deeds which we do and are evil by nature.​

    The exception: The children of God who (also caught up struggling and laboring in this conflict), are drawn to the light by God (whether by predisposition or what or how or why, I know not except it is by His will).​

    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

    Matthew 11
    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

    HankD​
     
  17. freeatlast

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    You are totally missing the import of this passage. It is speaking about those who have never heard and how they will be judged verses those who have had the law and how they will be judged. Any person who is judged by the law is lost. True believers are judged in Christ.
    Based on Romans 2 man does not need the written law to understand that certain things are evil and every person at some point violates their own conscience making us all guilty. In other words they do things that they feel is wrong. They will be judged for those things they did that violated their conscience.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    God had given isreal the law, expression of His perfect moral code, and their society was govern by it...

    law given to regulate/govern society, and to point them towards need of a messiah, as NO ONE can keep the law as God demands...

    With coming of the new Covenant, the law written in our herats in the sense have new natures and also have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and when weyield to Him, His empowering allows us to 'keep the law"
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Take note though, there are DOERS of truth that do love the light, and they are drawn to it:

    These DOERS of truth are the same as those DOERS of the law in Ro 2:13-15:

    “for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them)”

    However, DOING the truth, i.e. to do by nature the things of the law, is not inherent in unregenerate man, these deeds must be wrought in God, the work of the law must be written in their hearts.

    ....If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God Jn 3:3

    ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

    And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready at the quarry; and there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building. 1 Ki 6:7
     
  20. kyredneck

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    Show me where you come to that conclusion (I suppose by 'lost' you mean unregenerate)

    I assure you that we're all going to be judged by the essence of the law, that is, by our deeds:

    for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 2 Cor 5:10

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    You are still sooooo totally not 'getting it'. Ref vv 9 & 10, the context includes BOTH every soul of man that worketh evil, and, every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

    Those described in vv13-15 are DOERS OF THE LAW, i.e, good works. See my above post, for man to do by nature the things of the law requires the supernatural birth from above, i.e., the work of the law written upon the heart, which those in vv 13-15 have.

    You're 'hung up' on that word 'conscience', it seems to be causing you to have tunnel vision with the context of the passage.

    Compare:

    in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:15

    With:

    The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: Ro 8:16

    A good conscience is a very desirable thing to have:

    For our glorifying is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 2 Cor 1:12

    having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be put to shame who revile your good manner of life in Christ. 1 Pet 3:16

    Herein I also exercise myself to have a conscience void of offence toward God and men always. Acts 24:16

    which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3:21

    Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience sake. Ro 13:5

    Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 1 Tim 3:8,9

    I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience, how unceasing is my remembrance of thee in my supplications, night and day 2 Tim 1:3

    And Paul, looking stedfastly on the council, said, Brethren, I have lived before God in all good conscience until this day. Acts 23:1


    I'm not so sure that the natural man has that sort of conscience.
     

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