Differences in terms ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Will somebody point out the differences, if any, between the terms eternal salvation, as stated in Hebrews 5:8-9, and eternal salvation, as stated in Hebrews 9:12, in relation to each chapter's context versus the entire book's context ?

    This is an honest question, and I do not wish to start another Calvinist/Arminian debate, but I guess things will almost always head that way, and if it does, then so be it.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    bumping.....................
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Patience is a virtue Pinoy. :tongue3:


    I don't see a difference. Maybe I don't understand your question. Eternal life was made available through the once for all sacrifice of Christ. He is also our High Priest. (Heb. 5:10)
     
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Hebrews 5 passage uses the word eternal "salvation" (σωτηρία) whereas the 9:12 passage uses the word eternal "redemption." (λύτρωσις)

    σωτηρία
    1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
    a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
    b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
    1) of Messianic salvation
    2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
    3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

    λύτρωσις
    1) a ransoming, redemption
    2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

    Does that help any in your quest?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think it does.
    Thank you.
    I have a few follow up questions, and am just struggling on how to word them so as not to confuse anyone.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    okay, here are a few follow up questions:

    in both Scriptures, the word "eternal" came before "salvation" and "redemption".
    Why not just one word ?
    Say, salvation if salvation, or redemption, if redemption ?
    What basically is the difference between being "eternally saved" and "eternally redeemed" ?

    Thanks, again.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a tough question.

    As for eternal redemption, the writer (probably Paul) was speaking to Jews. Each year the high priest had to enter the holiest of holies. So it was temporary, not eternal. So the writer is telling us that Jesus has now entered in once and for all to secure eternal redemption for us.

    Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure about the Hebrews 9 passage, but as for the Hebrews 5 passage, the word there translated as salvation, which also means deliverance, does not always mean an eternal salvation or eternal deliverance.

    Although I don't know Greek, I have heard my profs say many times that Christians need to be careful about thinking that every time they see the word "salvation" or "saved" in the Bible that it necessarily means eternal salvation. It does not always mean that. So here, the word "eternal" is used to make it clear what it means.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you, Marcia. And if you have at least skimmed through some of my, and fellow PB's, posts, we have always maintained the same thing. Not everytime the word "salvation" or any of its forms appear, it means the eternal salvation which alone is ascribed and ascribable (sic) only to Christ as the author and procurer.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    I appreciate this response as well, winman.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Okay, now let me share my take on this.

    I believe that, if you look at the context of chapter 5, it speaks of the role, purpose and reasons why there is a human high priest, (vv. 1-2), of the fact that this human high priest is himself not exempt from sin and therefore must offer up sacrifices for his sin as well (v 3), that the high priest is chosen by God for the people (v 4), and even so, Christ, while Himself God, submitted to this sovereign right of God to choose whom He will for the High Priesthood of His people, which choice was pictured in the Old Testament, and made in eternity past (vv 5 and 6, which I quote in these parentheses : So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec).

    Continuing, the writer of Hebrews points out that having taken human form, even the eternal Son of God experienced like emotions as normal humans do (think of the Scripture about Elijah being like unto us) and how, though heavily burdened and fearful of the fate that was to befall Him, despite all that He endured, Christ obeyed (and here Philippians 2:6-8 appropriately comes to mind), and given the fact that He is and always was the Eternal Jehovah, who submitted Himself to the will of the great Three in One (some say One in Three. whatever), the salvation He secured for His people is eternal.

    Now, why, and what is the reason for the last words of verse 9 ? I quote and highlight the words I am inquiring about:

    And being made perfect , he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Is our salvation then conditioned on our obedience to Christ ?
    If it is so, then what about those who have not learned of Him ?
    Then, if we don't obey, there is no salvation, and obedience is works-based, does it not follow that salvation is indirectly dependent on works of obedience ?

    I will welcome all replies.
    But let's be respectful of each other.
    I want to read your takes, but in fairness to all, you know what my soteriology is, and depending on the way we treat each other here, I will try my best to explain, lovingly, why I believe my soteriology is the correct interpretation, but will not belittle yours.
    If we do not remain respectful, then I promise you, I will visit you all in the night whilst you sleep, and thou shalt wake up in the morning with an itchiness on your neck, and two almost indistinghuishable bite marks and thou wilt notice thyself turning pale. (harharharhar).
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    may one and all have a blessed Sunday, and worship your God according to the dictates of your hearts, spirits, and consciences.
     
  13. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say yes, the scriptures speak of believing as obeying.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Well, this is a more difficult question. I personally believe God holds men responsible for what is revealed to them.

    Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


    Seems clear to me that the more you know of God, the more accountable you are. But the scriptures say all men can know of God to a degree and all are without excuse.

    So, exactly what do men who have never heard of Christ have to believe? I am not exactly sure. Perhaps they just know there is a creator who created all the universe and worship him and not idols. Even the ancient Jews did not know many details about the saviour to come, but did believe what was revealed to them at the time.

    This is one of those questions that I am not sure anyone will ever know on this side.

    Believing is obedience, but not necessarily a work. Jesus said, "ye believe in God, believe also in me" . If you do trust Christ, you have been obedient to Jesus, but you have not performed a work. Believing is trusting or depending on someone else, not ourselves, it is a ceasing from trying to save ourselves.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    winman, again I appreciate your reply.
    no disrespect, but I will not be able to post much anymore tonight.
    have to study Scripture as tomorrow my pastor will be somewhere else and I am to fill in for him.
    have a blessed day.
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the kind response. I know we do not agree on many things, but I still consider everyone here a friend. Have a good night.
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think one has to look at the context of Hebrews and that the author is addressing those who had become "dull of hearing" (v. 11). Some of the Jewish believers were hiding their Christian faith to avoid persecution and going back to Judaism, at least externally, and some maybe more.

    So this chapter rebukes this behavior, leading to this rather startling statement in chapter 6:
    One cannot think about the term "obey" in verse 9 by itself without looking at all the rest and without considering the message of the whole book of Hebrews.
     
  17. olegig

    olegig
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say yes; but let me qualify it by saying I feel in scripture every man's salvation is dependant on his obedience to what God told him and then made possible by the spreading of the shed blood of Christ.
    But we also must look at what God told each to obey.
    God told Abraham to get up and move to a different land, and he did it. God also told Abraham to kill his son Isaac, and he would have.

    God tells us today to believe and believing is not a work. (Rom 4:5)

    Is man to look for an excuse of not doing what God told him to do because of God's relationship to some other man?
    IMO God will not hold a man responsible for what God has not told that particular man.

    Our salvation is made possible by the gift of the Faith of Christ, not our own personal faith in Christ; therefore the saving faith of any man is not a work. (Gal 2:15-16; 3:22-23) [this truth is only revealed in the KJV]

    No worries my brother for I have developed an immunity to those bits.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying that one's salvation is dependent on obedience? Does this mean you think a person who is saved can lose his/her salvation and/or that someone must obey to be saved?
     
  19. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 5:9 says "eternal salvation, and Hebrews 9:12 says "eternal redemption". However, I see no difference between salvation and redemption. In both scriptures Christ obtained eternal salvation (or redemption) for us.

    Is there some difference you're seeing there?
     
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yes, but it's just me, probably, I wouldn't hold on to this as doctrine.
    The difference I see is that Hebrews 5:9 (eternal salvation) seems to have obedience to Christ in light of trials and tribulations as a command, whereby with such obedience, Christ, who learned obedience even if He were a Son.
    Now this command is to all who turn to Christ in faith as their Savior, and given the context of the letter, this will cover those to whom the letter is addressed who were once in the bondage of unbelief through the religion of Judaism. The salvation is eternal because this was determined in eternity past, like eternal redemption.

    The Hebrews 9:12 passage, on the other hand, has the rituals and sacrifices of the Old Testament as a background context comparing the redemption which Christ obtained for His people by His blood, and the scope is more general in that it has no pre-requisite as to theology, creed, race, religion, faith, obedience, and so on.

    While both addresses the Hebrews who were showing reluctance to continue in their faith and obedience (this epistle is said to have been written around 65 AD during the time when Nero sought to lay the blame on Christians and persecution was becoming intense), the 5:9 verse seemed to be addressing those who were weakening in their resolve to "stick" with Christ, so to speak, while the 9:12 seems to be for that audience that have abandoned the Christian faith and gone back to the rituals of Judaism.

    I'm still really studying the differences, if any.
     

Share This Page

Loading...