Differences in the "Timing" for Christ's Return

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by lastday, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. lastday

    lastday
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    Members of BB,

    What makes the difference among Preterists, PreTribs and PostTribs?

    Preterists can't be "prepared for Christ's return if He already "has come".
    PreTribs are "prepared" if the time for His coming may occur "any day".
    PostTribs will be "prepared" to face death as well as face the Savior.

    Preterists are certain the "day and hour" took place 1940 years ago.
    PreTribs think the "day and hour" applies to them; not to PostTribs.
    PostTribs see the "day and hour occurring after great tribulation".

    Jesus said He will raise up all believers on the "last day"!
    Preterists deny this day applies to the final generation!!
    PreTribs are comfortable since it applies only to them!!!
    Mel
     
    #1 lastday, Sep 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2010
  2. HankD

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    To focus in on that part of your post- what makes the differences - comes down to discerning the difference between what is imagery and what is literal and then assigning an underlying reality to the imagery.

    Normally, I don't like getting involved in protracted and repetetive debates, but for the sake of all in the knowing of those differences among brethren it has value and I engage with preterists.

    Others do the same for other positions - Calvin vs Arminius, etc.

    The undecided can have all the points of view and can choose (if they want or even care).

    What is so troubling to me and many others are the ways in which we get "carried away" and insult each other either directly or by innuendo and verbally hack each other to pieces over "Shibboleth vs. Sibboleth".

    Personally, I am fascinated by these differences and wish we could get over the unpleasantries.

    But we are Baptists.

    You know, ask 10 Baptists a question and you will get 12 answers and a black eye (a figure of speech of course).

    HankD
     
  3. lastday

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    Lastday

    HankD,

    Keeping in mind what is "literal as opposed to imargery", why do you think Pre-Tribbers claim the "DAY" of the Lord or "DAY" of God's wrath is a period of years
    rather than a single 12-Hour Day? Why does the "Last DAY" for raising up all Believers not refer to that same 12-Hour Day which Jesus states will occur "after the
    great tribulation"? Did He not mean the same literal time-period for the word day that we intend it to mean?

    The usual response is that Peter equated the Day of the Lord with a 1000 years! Peter compared God's "patience" for 1000 years with just a day of our patience!!
    The exact "appointed time for God's wrath is at the exhaustion of His patience"!!!

    We usually agree with each other. What do you say? Do you agree the Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath, is a literal day?
    Mel
     
  4. glfredrick

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    Mid trib for me... Based on Jesus' and Paul's warnings to the church. We will see the wrath of the enemy poured out, but we will escape God's wrath. About the only way that can happen is if we are here to see it.
     
  5. lastday

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    Lastday

    glfredrick,
    Mid-Trib?
    How do you support the words of Jesus if the "last day" occurs 3.5 years before
    "God's Mystery was finished"? "There will be no more delay in the days when the
    mystery of God was finished"! Rev.10:6-7. Here the past tense refers to just 3 or 4 days (3.5 days) while the Two Prophets lie dead waiting for their rapture which occurs on the last day!! They are "caught up" when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that "God's wrath has come"...for there is no wrath until the 7 Plagues "exhaust God's patience" while proving that men refuse to repent of their wicked deeds"!!!
    Mel
     
    #5 lastday, Sep 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2010
  6. glfredrick

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    How many trumpet calls are there? One or seven?

    The wrath does seem to be divided in two parts.

    For the pre-trib folks -- you are hard put to deal with what Christ and Paul sad about suffering the tribulation. You are in a difficult spot when asked to deal with why Christians suffer tribulation at all -- are only one group, who just happen to be living in the last day going to be caught up and totally escape the tribulation? Seems rather odd when disciples like Paul, John, Peter, etc., all suffered for the sake of Christ and were not raptured. Same for all the martyrs over the centuries -- and we're seeing more martyrs in this century than ever before.

    I'd like to have a pre-trib rapture, but I just can't see it through all the suffering believers since Christ spoke those words. But, I also cannot see no rapture at all... So, there has to be a middle ground.

    Do we understand it all? Not that I can see... I've read 20-30 books on the subject and explored the Word in the original languages. I believe that we'll all be surprised at how it all comes down once God starts the process -- just like the 1st century Jews were taken by surprise by the advent of Jesus Christ.
     
  7. dwmoeller1

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    More significantly, how many last trumpet calls are there? Occam's razor would suggest that the view which needs to account for only one *last* trumpet is the better view. Hence pre-trib and mid-trib views are problematic on this basis alone - both must account for at least 2 last trumps. Post-trib view needs account for only one.
     
    #7 dwmoeller1, Sep 27, 2010
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  8. Salty

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  9. HankD

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    I agree that the Day of God's wrath is one day.

    Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.​

    In my view The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation through the Millenium leading into the Eterrnal State.

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


    HankD
     
  10. lastday

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    You Write:
    Hank,
    Your response does not explain to me why you make the "Day of God" last a single Day; but the "Day of the Lord" last 1007 years! The Signs in each case occur "after great tribulation"!! Please explain how you make the start of the Day of the Lord retroactive by 7 Years; but not the Day of Wrath!!!

    What has happened to your view that a given word should be taken literally
    if it makes sense to do so? Peter does not say the "Day of the Lord" IS a
    period of 1000 years; but only that, with God's patience, 1000 years is no more than LIKE a single day in respect to our measure of patience.
    I need
    your explanation of why Jesus put the OT signs of the Day of the Lord as
    occurring AFTER the great tribulation. Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24.
    Mel
     
  11. lastday

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    Lastday

    The timing for the Rapture is determined by honoring the word of the Lord
    that the "unknown last day" occurs "in the days after the great tribulation"!
    Mark 13:24.
    It's verified by His revelation to John that "the mystery of God was finished
    in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet sounds that 'God's wrath has come'"!!
    Rev.10:6-7.
    The Two Prophets are killed 3 days before the Last Trumpet proclaims "the
    exact time has come to judge and reward saints" and to destroy those who are gathered to Armageddon intent on destroying Israel.
    They rise up in 3.5 days so that Jesus must appear on the last day...the day upon which Jesus raises all Believers to meet Him in the air...
    but no one knows whether the Hour of Trial occurs on the 3rd or the 4th
    day...for the 3.5 days indicates it will be a Saturday far West of Israel;
    but a Sunday in Israel as of 6 PM.
    Mel
     
    #11 lastday, Sep 28, 2010
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  12. HankD

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    The wrath of God is one day, having been shortened to that length ot time lest no flesh survive.

    My view of the "Day of the Lord" as either 1007 years or 1000 (993 +7) years is admitedly a view I arrived at from comparing scripture with scripure across the full study of the major and minor prophets.

    The engagement with the preterist brethren has made me return to this study and reevaluate my position(s) and that is a good thing.

    I can never see myself accepting full preterism because of their interpretation (misinterpretation in my view) of the Olivet Discourse in the synoptic gospels, Acts 1, the Book of Revelation and several other passages both OT and NT.

    I have however learned from them.

    Right now I am into Obadiah so with your permission lets hold off until another time.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  13. lastday

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    Your write:
    I await your further study with interest. Please keep in mind that your view would stand up much more effectively, IMO, if you maintain the Day of God's wrath is limited to the single 12-Hour Day of the Lord. Being a single DAY forces the fulfillment of 40 percent of the text in Revelation (from 6:12 to 20:6) to be fulfilled in that single 12-hour day!

    Jesus promised to "raise up all believers on the last day and He will gather the elect from earth in the days after great tribulation and send the angels to complete their gathering upon and out of the 4 winds, by the word of the Lord, to bring the souls of the dead in Christ WITH Him and to meet Him at the Synagogue in the sky!! John 6:38-40,44,54;
    Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24;31; I Thess.4:13-16; 2 Thess.2:1.

    If all this occurs on the same DAY and during the HOUR of Trial, then Preterists have no ground upon which to stand by claiming any part of 100 verses in Revelation took place 1940 years before the End of the Age!!!
    Mel
     
    #13 lastday, Sep 28, 2010
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  14. HankD

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    True and unless it had not been shortened to one day all flesh would have died (I am using the past tense in the sense of the Epistolary Aorist and not the preterist POV).

    Actually, I don't think there are many of any persuasion who accept that the wrath of God encapsulated in the Great Tribulation all happens in one (or part of one) sidereal day or have even considered it, are there?

    HankD
     
  15. glfredrick

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    The difficulty is that the tribulation is not God's wrath. We will have to undergo some part of the tribulation period before God extracts us, with all those who have died in faith, before He pours out His wrath upon the unrepentant who are left. There is no pre-tribulation rapture scenario that can take all that into account.
     
  16. lastday

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    You Write:
    Hank,
    Here's a great assumption offered by the present-day PreTrib Rapture view. I wonder if you know the original basis for your assumption that the Day of the Lord must begin
    "7 Years" before Christ comes to redeem Israel. You say "the Millennium equals 7 years plus 983 years" to fit your great assumption!

    I also wonder if you know about the original Dispensational argument that automatically removed the Church from the earth 7 years before Christ comes to redeem Israel
    and begins His reign over all mankind. That original view didn't even go as far as your view by shortening the Millennium from 1000 years to 983 years...in fact, this is the
    first time I had ever heard of shortening the Reign of Christ to 983 Years!!

    The original argument was that "God should remove the Church from earth
    when He resumes His dealings with the nation of Israel for 7 years". Then,
    based on that argument, verses were taken out of context to support their
    argument...like "We are not appointed to the wrath" of the tribulation; and "no know knows the day or hour" (that begins the Tribulation DAY of the Lord).
    In 1970 Hal Lindsey published the "Late Great Planet Earth" and he wrote
    many pages to support the original argument for removing the Church
    7 years before Christ comes
    to deliver Israel and reign over the nations;
    as if God no longer needs the Church on earth to spread the Gospel and to help prepare Israel to meet their Messiah. The Church would suffer too much persecution
    if left on the earth during the "Tribulation DAY of the Lord"!!!

    Hank, I think you are roped into a view that does not exalt the Church as the only dispensers of the Gospel at the most critical time in history.
    Mel
     
  17. HankD

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    Yes, I understand that. "we are not appointed to wrath", so whether by "snatching away" or providential protection or perhaps some other means we (the children of God) will not suffer His wrath.

    In Matthew 13 we are "gathered into His barn" (whatever, wherever that is) while the tares which are to be burned are "bound in the field".

    During the harvest, the barn "apotheke" was either a temporary shelter in which to keep the crop to protect it from the elements and foraging animals until the harvest was over or a permanent granary.

    HankD
     
  18. HankD

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    I believe I said 993 years + 7 of the Tribulation as the Tribulation is the very beginning of the reign of Christ as He cleans up the earth.

    Though I'm not dogmatic about that.

    Also my views are my own, Some time ago I wanted to develop my own views (of course not isolated from all other human authors) even our preterist brethren, so I tried to clean the slate and start over.

    So, my eschatology is I suppose a "moving target" with a foundation of a moderate dispensational view. But I'm still llearning.

    We all won't agree, that is impossible, so you and I will have to live with each other's differences. That doesn't mean I won't take any suggestions. I appreciate your posts.

    HankD
     
  19. lastday

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    Lastday

    HankD,
    The means of "escape from God's wrath" is via the Rapture!
    You wrote:
    Son of Man "first" reaps the Tares on the last DAY as described in Rev.14!
    The Angel calls it "The HOUR to reap" as He reaps the tares on the earth!!
    This HOUR occurs when the Lamb rescues 144,000 Jews "from the earth"!!!

    The remaining Saints are "kept from the HOUR of Trial facing all mankind"!
    God's wrath is limited to an HOUR of Judgment upon all the face of earth!!
    The Cup of the wine of His Wrath destroys mountains and cities globally!!!

    Why should the DAY and HOUR not refer to a single day and single Hour?
    Why do Pre-Tribbers refer to the Hour of Trial as a "7-Year Tribulation"?
    How can there be 7 Years in two passages regarding the same context?
    Mel
     
    #19 lastday, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2010
  20. HankD

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    Be patient Mel, We are all still learning.
    FWIW, I divide the "Tribulation" into two parts - the Tribulation of 3.5 years, and The Great Tribulation of 3.5 years.

    The last day and hour are just that the last day and hour of the Great Tribulation.

    One day of plagues, one hour of final judgement.

    Revelation 18
    8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.​

    Chapters 19-20 a reiteration of Chapter 18.

    Your comments and the personal results of your studies do not go unnoticed by me. I will admit that you lose me every once and a while. ​

    Thanks
    HankD​
     

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