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Difficulty Understanding

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rosell, Apr 25, 2004.

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  1. Rosell

    Rosell New Member

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    This board has provided me with a lot of insight into the diversity of the Baptist movement that I never really saw from my corner (or corners) of it both denominationally and geographically.

    I have to say, however, that the most baffling point of observation has been the ongoing dialogue in this thread between the KJVO advocates and those who accept other "modern" English translations as either equal to or superior to the King James Version. In all of my life in the church, the vast majority of it in Baptist churches, I never encountered this controversy. Yet, of all the threads posted on this board, this one seems to be the place where the most heated arguments take place. Many of the arguments certainly violate Peter's admonition to answer in defense of one's faith with "gentleness and respect" so that outsiders cannot criticize your good intentions in Christ.

    Admittedly, I do not understand the KJV only position. God has blessed us with an increasingly clear understanding of the original languages of the Bible, as well as some manuscript discoveries and insights in the last two centuries in particular that make the more modern English translations superior in accuracy to the King James translation. One can pick up an English translation and, knowing the translation team's approach, can read and study scripture as closely to the original author's ideas as is possible in a translation.

    And yet, if a pastor and congregation choose to study and preach and memorize from the King James Version, are they not capable of discerning the message of truth?

    Attempting to reach such a fine point of absolute doctrinal purity that hostility erupts between advocates of various Bible translations is contrary to the nature and spirit of the Christian faith. Absolute doctrinal purity is neither attainable nor necessary for salvation and Christian living. When the finer points become debates, egos and opinions are major factors.

    I pastor a church that has a number of members who have been disillusioned by the bickering and fighting in the Baptist camp over finite points of doctrine, leadership style, worship style and other issues, and who have left their churches because the divisions and hostility shut down the Christian love between brothers and sisters in Christ. Now, I know you guys here love each other in the Lord........right?
     
    #1 Rosell, Apr 25, 2004
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Greeting, Brother Pastor Rosell!

    Someone asks this question about every
    two months here. Here is my summary of
    them:

    :eek: (eek!)
     
    #2 Ed Edwards, Apr 25, 2004
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Hi Pastor Rosell,
    I don't know if you have taken debate in college. If you have, you know that the "debate attitude" is alive and well and that most people on this thread can talk to each other or PM each other without the slightest of animosity. Maybe it does shock outsiders, but this is one of the few good places where this can be discussed freely over the internet. There are rules here.

    Also, note that you are right, if someone wishes to memorize or even use a KJV, I do not know any MV person who thinks there is anything wrong with it. But, on the other hand, it becomes almost a Catch-22 from the KJVo side simply because they do not believe the MV's are Bibles. We do. Since we (none of us) are allowed to call God's Word bad names, this leaves the KJVo's in an awkward position where they have to tread softly to keep from calling other Bibles what they think about them.

    We are allowed to discuss the level of accuracy of the different translations. For instance, it has been pretty much determined that "The Message" is not a very good translation (to put it mildly). By saying it this way, we are not condemning the book, just saying that it is not an accurate translation. Now, if I were to say it was "demonic" then there is a problem because even "The Message" tells the story of "salvation" through Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    All of us pretty much know each other and a lot of remarks are made in jest. Some of the KJVo people are so passionate about the KJV being the only Bible that they take it as a personal insult when we say that an ESV is just as much of a Bible as a KJV. ...that they both contain the inerrant Word of God. ;)
     
    #3 Phillip, Apr 25, 2004
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Every fortnight we have this same discussion.
    Please don't be surprised if not many respond.


    See the 22 April post of Baptistgal:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/4/1411/4.html

    Poorly formed question by hit/run poster:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1530.html?

    12 April 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1535.html?

    7 April 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1522.html?

    19 March 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1464.html?

    6 March 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1415.html?

    23 Feb 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1376.html?

    21 Feb 2004:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1366.html?

    [​IMG]

    please run over here and vote,
    if you havn't yet. Thank you.
     
    #4 Ed Edwards, Apr 25, 2004
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    #5 Ed Edwards, Apr 25, 2004
  6. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Dear Pastor Rosell,

    I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I think we often cross the line into the flesh when debating. That is always a negative of Biblical debate. I hope that we would monitor ourselves, always be overly quick to apologize, and constantly keep in mind there are blood bought children of God on the other end of every comment. (And babies watching.)

    OTOH, we must also acknowledge the Holy Ghost working in all of God's children through each of their gifts. There are MVers who know things that I never would have considered. God has taught us all a little. We are a body and responsible to each other.

    In Godly debate, we can have our beliefs and doctrines tested. After all, if my beliefs don't stand up to a little criticism, then I might need to shore up some areas, or perhaps even abandon my position. If we never change, we never grow.

    I was thinking today about the friends I have made here. I wish we could all get together some time and have a big BB-BBQ. We could have a three legged race where a MVer had to team up with a KJVOer, and play yard darts with Ed.
    ;)
    I know this: many that I have met here would be my friends, what-ever their "position"

    God bless you and welcome to the BB.

    Pastor Lacy Evans
     
    #6 Lacy Evans, Apr 25, 2004
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Brother Pastor Lacy: " ... play yard darts with Ed."

    I've had the job of "spear catcher" before,
    but never a "yard dart" [​IMG]
     
    #7 Ed Edwards, Apr 25, 2004
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Look out below!
     
    #8 Lacy Evans, Apr 25, 2004
  9. USN2Pulpit

    USN2Pulpit New Member

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    Now that's an ancient Elizabethan word. It's archaic. I believe it would be more accurately translated from the originals as "two weeks." From the Elizabethan "fort" meaning "fourteen," and "night" meaning..."nights."
     
    #9 USN2Pulpit, Apr 25, 2004
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Actually I heard that word used recently on the television.
     
    #10 gb93433, Apr 25, 2004
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    KJVO is not limited to Baptist churches. I first heard of it long before I was a Baptist in 1974.
     
    #11 gb93433, Apr 25, 2004
  12. Rosell

    Rosell New Member

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    I see that this has frequently come up before, and since that is the case, let me share a perspective that I think is important.

    Many of the people in the congregation I pastor have been deeply wounded by attitudes and actions of church members in churches. A good portion of them are what I would call "spiritual refugees," people who entered the house of God expecting to find his grace, and found instead leaders protecting their own personal "turf" and building their own kingdom, using people's faith, trust and resources. In one case, a pastor was called to a church and immediately announced that his "leadership style" would probably offend and hurt some people. In another case, people were actually singled out and asked specific questions about specific beliefs, and then denied the opportunity to serve in their church if their answer didn't specifically agree with the questioner.

    I see a lot of those terms in this thread in particular. When one Christian judges another as a heretic based on a difference in belief that can't really be discerned in scripture, it raises a red flag in my mind, especially since I attempt to react to things as I think people in my church might perceive them. So I raised the question.

    How very difficult it is not to judge someone else's faith when they are judging yours because you use a particular English translation of the Bible. I would hope that I am secure enough in my own faith to know where I stand before God, and someone making a sarcastic or critical remark about my faith because I use a particular modern English translation of the Bible rather than the King James Version should not change that security. I would rather that others know that Christ lives in me because His love is evident in my life.

    Yes, this may be a re-hash of previous comments and questions, but it is probably good that a new board member brings it to light every now and then.
     
    #12 Rosell, Apr 26, 2004
  13. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I feel that as a folloower of Christ it is my duty to criticize a false doctrine, and telling others not to use a particular version of the Bible, and tearing down others faith is something I am strongly opposed too.
    Too many Christians want to turn their heads and use the "can't we all get along" attitude. which is not biblical. Even Paul stood up to Peter. And I bet he didn't just say, "now, peter, honey, we just are going to have to agree to disagree."
    no, paul put Peter in his place.
    We have to Stand for the truth. It is our responsibility. It is not my business to tell others which Bible to use. And it is unbiblical to Slander my Bible. BTW I use the KJV, NASB, NIV, and NLT. (i even use the Message sometimes)
    Oh, no, here comes the version police!!!!!!
     
    #13 tinytim, Apr 26, 2004
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Screeeeech!!(Version Police cruiser responding!wooOOooOOooOOoo!)


    Tiny Tim, how DARE you not use my NKJV! (Scold, Scold)You're Busted!

    Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to read you your Ruckman rights...lets see...what are they for THIS week?...

    You have the right to be silent while we trump up more charges.

    You have the right to an attorney, who has the right to live large at your expense. If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you, but don't expect Perry Mason. If you CAN afford one, don't expect to be able to for long.

    Anything you say can & will be held against you in every message board.

    You have the right to a speedy trial...so speedy you're tried & convicted before you're even busted! How's THAT for efficiency!?

    You have the right to a trial before a jury of our peers.

    You have the right to simply plead guilty so we don't get TOO mad.

    Thou art hereby charged with version desertion! Penalty: Thirty days of listening to the bumper music from your phone when you're put on "hold", plus, watching all the commercials on ESPN between NFL draft selections!

    A 2nd conviction will result in your being given parachute jumping lessons from the Goodrich Blimp while listening to last year's Burgon Society hip hop session!

    Cruel & unusual punishment for a cruel & unusual offense!(Tsk Tsk)

    Hey, don't feel bad! Before I switched sides, I wuz busted in Cincy while walking down the street carrying a NIV & was pre-convicted for being ugly in a public place, & 2nd-degree goat roping. I wuz sentenced to 15 hours' community service, I.E. attending Sen. Kerry rallies. Speaking of solitary confinement...

    My motto... If ya can't fight'em, make fun of'em!
     
    #14 robycop3, Apr 26, 2004
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    You are probably
    correct.

    When you use the KJV, do you prefer
    the KJV1769 edition (available electronicly),
    KJV1873 edition, or KJV1611 edition?
    The KJV1873 is now available in paper
    in the TODAY'S PARALLEL BIBLE (Zonverdan, 2000).
    This four barrelled canon contains:
    King James Version, 1873 edition (KJV1873);
    New American Standard Bible (NASB);
    New International Version (NIV); and
    New Living Translation (NLT).
     
    #15 Ed Edwards, Apr 26, 2004
  16. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Roby, I forgot you used to be a cop. I laughed my head off at your post. That's OK, I'll just get the lawyers Michael Jackson fired.

    Isn't Phillip some sort of investigator? Maybe you two can join together and rid this world of Bibliolatry.

    Way to go ED, I love my four barreled canon as well. I've been accused of not having one inspired Bible. They are right. I have FOUR!!
    That's right FOUR. That I carry to everywhere I go. Not to mention my esword, which has (I think) 12. BTW, my favorite KJV is the 1873. I just realized it the other day, I have another 1873 KJV that I didn't know. It is the Zondervan KJV Study Bible. I got it at Wally world for under $15.
    If you have never read one, get it. It corrects the mistake in Heb 10:23, and the straining "at" a gnat" goof. along with other things, I can't think of now.
    Gotta go.
     
    #16 tinytim, Apr 26, 2004
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    robycop3;

    If that weren't so true it would be funny.
     
    #17 gb93433, Apr 26, 2004
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I Chron 26 "Eastward were sixe Leuites, Northward foure a day, Southward foure a day, and toward Asuppim two and two. And Parbar Westward, foure at the causey, and two at Parbar."

    Figure anyone who can't understand simple English doesn't deserve to hear the word.
     
    #18 Dr. Bob, Apr 27, 2004
  19. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos New Member

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    What part don't you understand?
     
    #19 skanwmatos, Apr 27, 2004
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Check that verse in the 1611 and then in a modern revision (say 1769) KJV. See not just different spelling, but different words.

    Explain a "causey" to folks today. If you have to say " . . . but today we would call this a ____ " then you have just endorsed a modern version that changes the 1611.

    (BTW, when my kids were homeschooled and we were going through the Bible we came to "coney" and I asked them what that meant. They said, "It's Tuesday - coney dog day at A&W". Coney meant something to them after all!!)
     
    #20 Dr. Bob, Apr 27, 2004
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