Dirty or shabby renderings?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by BobinKy, Aug 12, 2010.

  1. BobinKy

    BobinKy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    0
    In James 2:2, English translators appear to be divided in the rendering of rhyparos (G/K # 4865, Strong # 4508).

    First, here are a few translations in context.

    1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? (James 2:1-4; KJV)

    1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? (James 2:1-4; NASB)

    1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious LORD Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? (NIV)

    1My friends, if you have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, you won't treat some people better than others. 2Suppose a rich person wearing fancy clothes and a gold ring comes to one of your meetings. And suppose a poor person dressed in worn-out clothes also comes. 3You must not give the best seat to the one in fancy clothes and tell the one who is poor to stand at the side or sit on the floor. 4That is the same as saying that some people are better than others, and you would be acting like a crooked judge. (James 2:1-4; CEV)​

    Next, here are several English renderings of rhyparos in James 2:2, categorized along the dirty-shabby line.

    Dirty Renderings
    dirty (HCSB, NASB, NLT-SE 2007, NRSV)
    filthy (NKJV, NET)
    vile (ASV, KJV, Young's)

    Middle Ground Rendering
    filthy old (TNIV-2005)

    Shabby Renderings
    ragged (GNT-1992)
    rags (Message, Cotton Patch Version)
    shabby (NIV, NLT-1996, RSV, ESV, Amplified-basic text, JB, NJB, Interlinear-Brown & Comfort 1990, NEB, Phillips)
    worn-out (NIrV, CEV)

    It is interesting that the NLT vacillated from shabby (1996) to dirty (2007), and that the translators of TNIV also noticed a distinction and selected a middle ground rendering of filthy old.

    BAGD gives the sense of filthy rags (2nd ed., p. 738A).

    If you are wondering how it feels to wear shabby clothing, you might take a look at the character sketch "Shabby-Genteel People" written by Charles Dickens sometime in the 1830s, published today in the collection Sketches By Boz. "Shabby-Genteel People" may be read online at this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=UNXPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA307&lpg#v=onepage&q&f=false

    . . .

    What say you?

    Are dirty and shabby the same?


    ...Bob :0)
    Kentucky
     
    #1 BobinKy, Aug 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2010
  2. Trotter

    Trotter
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    In English they can mean the same thing, but not always. In Greek, I dunno. ;)
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Vile (a-timia) would be disgraceful or shameful even in the eyes of the unregenerate. Used in the AV in Rom 1:26 (vile affections of lebians)

    Vile (tapeinosis) would be humiliated, lowdown/depressed. Used in the AV in Phil 3:21 (vile body made anew into a glorious body)

    Vile (rhuparos) would be dirty, cheap, shabby. Metaphorically used of sinful or wicked. Used in James 2:2 (vile clothing)

    Three TOTALLY DIFFERENT God-inspired words, all translated to look like synonyms in English to the average reader.

    BTW in the James 2 account it is clear that James is speaking of the "vile" in the sense of poor or shabby clothes. NOT "bad" vile. NOT "ditry or uunwashed" vile. In the next few verses the "vile" clothing fellow is classified as "poor".
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Yes, all different meanings. WE would consider "vile" clothes to be a spray-on bikini, etc. Such a raiment would be vile without being dirty, worn-out, poor, or shabby. It's easy to miss these subtleties in God's word when one is limited to reading only one version.
     
  5. BobinKy

    BobinKy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    0
    All...

    Thank you for replying to this thread.

    I was in error in placing the vile translations with the dirty translations. I checked the American Heritage Dictionary and vile appears to fit the Greek rhyparos more than dirty or shabby. Thank you for pointing that out. Score another one for the KJV!

    ...Bob :0)
    Kentucky
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well, actually, shabby or worn-out would fit better in modern English. The KJV uses a meaning for 'vile' that was common usage 400 years ago, but not now. Score another one for variety of translations!
     

Share This Page

Loading...