Dispensationalism and the Rapture, Pre-Darby.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brice, Mar 6, 2006.

  1. Brice

    Brice
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    I was watching a program about the rapture on the History Channel last night and the statement was made that the idea of the rapture started with Darby. Obviously some ideas were there, but the modern idea of the rapture started with Darby. What say you?

    They stated this with fact, but I had a hard time buying it.
     
  2. Craigbythesea

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    The concept of a pre-trib rapture was first clearly presented in writing by J. N. Darby in 1830 but he claimed that he came to that conclusion about the rapture in 1827 while studying dispensational theology. Many people believe that he really came to that conclusion as a consequence of a visit to the home of James and Margaret Macdonald shortly before 1830. James and Margaret McDonald are said by some to have been members of or visitors to Edward Irving’s Church where speaking in tongues and the giving of prophesy sometimes dominated the church services.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Brice

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    The concept of a pre-trib rapture was first clearly presented in writing by J. N. Darby in 1830 but he claimed that he came to that conclusion about the rapture in 1827 while studying dispensational theology. Many people believe that he really came to that conclusion as a consequence of a visit to the home of James and Margaret Macdonald shortly before 1830. James and Margaret McDonald are said by some to have been members of or visitors to Edward Irving’s Church where speaking in tongues and the giving of prophesy sometimes dominated the church services.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks GBTS, but how about the rapture? Are you of the opinion that the modern view of the rapture started with Darby? This just strikes me as odd, based on our view of scripture. I wonder what the pre-Darby views were and how they affected Christianity? Any thoughts are appreciated. God bless.
     
  4. MikeinGhana

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    I honestly thought Paul taught on the catching away before Darby, but then again, I may be mistaken!!!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Craigbythesea: //Many people believe that he really came to that conclusion as a consequence of a visit to the home of James and Margaret Macdonald shortly before 1830. James and Margaret McDonald are said by some to have been members of or visitors to Edward Irving’s Church where speaking in tongues and the giving of prophesy sometimes dominated the church services.//

    I have never read this idea said until the mid 1980s.
    This idea was started by an anti-pretrib teacher named
    Dave MacPherson in an early 1970s book called
    The Incredible Cover-Up. Sorry to break the
    bubble, but I developed my pretribulation rapture doctrine
    straight from the Holy Bible developed by the 2 Timothy 2:15
    method:

    2Ti 2:15 (KJV1611 edition):
    Studie to shewe thy selfe approued vnto God,
    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
    rightly diuiding the word of trueth.


    I didn't need good teachers like Darby nor bad teachers
    like lMacPherson - I learned straight from THE BIBLE.

    Here is one of my pre-trib writings:

    ----------------------------------


    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
    -------------------------------------

    So I guess Darby had to hop into a time Machine and go
    back to pre1611 and convince the translators of the KJV
    to put "Falling away" into 2 Thess 2:3. (BTW, the perfectly good
    English word "apostasy" did exist and was used with it's current
    meaning in 1611.

    Then Darby had to hop back into the time Machine and go to
    the earlier seven English Bibles and get those translators
    to put some form of "departure" into 2 Thess 2:3.

    Yes, Dave MacPherson, teach the WHOLE TALE of Darby and not just the
    part that caters to your own eschatology ;)

    The main contribultion to eschatology that Darby made was to
    provide the word "Rapture" for the 'caught up' of 1 Thess 4:17.
    He coined a word and gets a lot of bad rap?

    BTW, Darby does NOT look on 2 Thess 2:3 like I do.
    Here is part of his comentary on 2 Thess 2:1-17:

    James Nelson Darby: //The apostle had already instructed the Thessalonians with regard to this wicked one, when at Thessalonica; and in the former epistle he had taught them concerning the rapture of the church. In order that the Lord should come in judgment, iniquity must have reached its height, and open opposition to God have been manifested. But the truth had another and more precious side: the saints were to be in the same position as Christ, to be gathered together unto Him, before He could manifest Himself in glory to those outside. But these truths require a more connected examination.//

    ...

    //In the second place, the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and //

    Darby thought the 'falling away' was 'the Great Apostacy';
    Ed thinks that the 'falling away' is THE GREAT YANK, the CAUGHT UP,
    the time when the saints are gathered together before the Tribulation
    Period, the time when we fall away into the very hands of Jesus
    who takes us to heaven, the pretribulation Rapture.
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    Dave McPherson has been writing on this subject for years. He contends that British preacher Edward Irving wrote about a pre-trib rapture as early as 1825. Margaret McDonald had her vision i 1830. McPherson contends that Darby's first writing about pre-trib was in 1839.

    McPherson's website:
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/macpherson-dave.html

    Tom B.
     
  7. EdSutton

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    Why does the identification of this web-site NOT surprise me?
    Ed
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Dictionary of Premillennial Theology (Kregel Publications 1996)
    page 244, the article about 'MACDONALD, MARGARET':

    //Margaret Macdonald (1815= ca. 1840) is
    alleged by Dave MacPherson, a postribulational
    polemicist, to be the originator of
    pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic
    revelation in the spring of 1830. Even though
    there is no actual evidence to support his
    claim, MacPherson is correct that his spurious
    charge has served to make the
    fifteen-year-old Scottish lass "a household name
    in Christian circles."//
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Ah ha! proof positive there are two eds.
    (we both posted in the same minute).

    As my British and Aussie friends say:

    Two 'eds are better than one!
     
  10. saturneptune

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    groan................ [​IMG]
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    I'm going to have to do some puns with
    "Darby" and "Arby's" ;)
     
  12. mioque

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    "What say you?"
    "
    I say that I don't know about any essays covering the pre-trib rapture by theological authors prior to the 19th century. I also say that outside of the english speaking world and a couple of groups heavily influenced by american pre-trib churches, nobody believes in the pre-trib rapture.
    If this wasn't an end times issue (where it makes perfect sense in a weird sort of way to gain new insights as it approaches ) I would dismiss it out of hand.
     
  13. Bro Tony

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    I am with both the "Eds", even though the one needs some time at the comedy school :D .

    If one is looking for pre-Darby teaching on the rapture from an authoritarian source, I would suggest the New Testamant. I will stick with the Apostle Paul on this matter.

    Bro Tony
     
  14. Paul33

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    And the Apostle Paul was clearly post-trib just like Jesus was!
     
  15. Brother James

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    A pre-trib rapture is clearly a new teaching introduced in the 19th century. The Irving/Mcdonald/Darby connection is hard to get around. Pre-trib teaching has been around since the beginning but a toungue speaking woman had to reveal the pre-trib rapture to us.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Whether the pre-trib rapture was the invention of John Darby or not may be debated but he certainly propogated it with the aid of Scofield.

    Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] Irving's Church was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’.
     
  17. Brice

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    Thanks for the responses. I’m going to try to summarize up to this point. Here are the four sentiments I’ve found so far.

    - I believe a post-trib rapture.
    - I believe in a pre-trib rapture.
    - Darby put together the idea of a “rapture” based on an interpretation of the text.
    - Margaret Macdonald put together this idea before Darby.

    I agree with the sentiment that we should stick to Paul’s words, but I’m trying to gain a better understanding of the history of pre-trib ideas. Thanks again for the insights so far. God bless.
     
  18. LadyEagle

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    [​IMG]

    Here's a link about this:

    Source about this
     
  19. Tom Butler

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    Brother James, I'm confused. First, you say pre-trib rapture is a new teaching. Then you say it's been around since the beginning. Then you say essentially that Margaret revealed it to us.

    Could you clear up my confusion for me?

    Tom B.
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    To the two Eds (which are better than one Ed):

    Brice asked a question, I tried to point him to one answer by referring him to McPherson's website. Agree with him or not, McPherson does speak directly to Brice's inquiry.

    Tom B.
     

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