Dispensationalism is not what Christ taught

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Bob Hope, Feb 12, 2016.

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  1. Bob Hope

    Bob Hope
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    How do most of you explain away the salvation message taught by the Messiah? Is dispensationalism really the right answer?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    We don't explain away the salvation message taught by the Messiah. Soooooooo......good luck.
     
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  3. Bob Hope

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    Well that's good. Do you teach that it applies to us or do you teach it was an O.T. Message?
     
  4. vooks

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    I trashed dispensationalism on Ezekiel's temple.

    What purpose does the elaborate temple and reinstituted Levitical sacrifices including sin offerings serve post-Calvary especially in the light of the finality with which Hebrews dismisses any attempt to revert to Moses?
     
  5. JonC

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    I believe the principle applies - "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

    Reinstituted sacrificial systems can only serve, IMHO, as a denial of the gospel message. I also do not understand why such a return is anticipated.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  6. Darrell C

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    Dispensationalism, like any System, is only profitable in that which is correct, and like any other system, where it is found in error, is to be rejected.

    Is there anything particular about this System that you feel is in error? I would be curious as to how you come to the conclusion that it "...explains away the salvation message taught by Christ."

    Please elaborate. And by the way, I do not consider myself a Dispensational believer, as I embrace no particular System as a whole.


    God bless.
     
  7. Bob Hope

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    I came out of hyper dispensationalism. They believe that Christ lived in the OT and therefore taught an OT salvation message. They believe that Matthew Mark Luke and John are doctrinally for Israel and Acts, all of Pauls books, are for the church. Then Hebrews through Revelation are back to close out the end for the Israelites again.

    My biggest contention with this warp concept is what Christ told his disciples AFTER His death.


    19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Christ tells them to teach the exact message that He had taught them.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    As evidenced by what you have said here you do not actually know what they believe.
     
  9. Bob Hope

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    Please elaborate.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Sure I will elaborate. Your claim about what we believe is deluded. You seem to have this mythical and hyper focus on some OT message. Maybe you should actually study things before you criticize it.
     
  11. Bob Hope

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    So that's great, maybe you could explain in your big boy words where I am wrong.
     
    #11 Bob Hope, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  12. Darrell C

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    Not sure I would consider that to be exclusively a "Hyper-Dispensational" teaching. While it would have to be discussed in greater detail, I see this as simply a Biblical teaching which unfortunately many do not understand.

    Think about this: the Gospel was not revealed during Christ's Ministry, this did not take place until Pentecost. When Christ sent the disciples out He restrained them from going to anyone but...Israel:



    Matthew 10:5-7

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



    Now I ask you...why?

    The answer is because the Lord ministered in a context which was distinctly of Israel. Israel had been promised this Kingdom and that was what they were expectant of. Have you considered that Peter was in opposition to the Gospel itself?



    Matthew 16:21-23

    King James Version (KJV)

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



    See what Peter says there? He is saying "Lord you will never...go to the Cross."

    We see Peter try to keep Christ from the Cross in the Garden, taking up a sword and thinking that he can physically "save" Christ. We see Peter deny he even knew Christ when He was taken.

    Was Peter a born again believer in Christ?

    One thing is for certain, Peter, nor anyone, had yet been Baptized with the Spirit. This took place when the Spirit came. You can read about His coming in John 14 and 16.

    So while I would not agree that the Gospels have no application to the Church, I would say that the Gospels are within a Kingdom context related to Israel, whereas Acts and the Epistles deal with the Church and this Age. We do distinguish a Jewish context for Hebrews and James, but that does not mean they do not relate to the Body as a whole.

    Here is a question for you: were men born again before Pentecost?

    Answer that question and it will help you to understand the distinction made between the Ministry of Christ prior to Pentecost and the revelation of the Gospel Mystery.


    God bless.
     
  13. Bob Hope

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    Thanks for answering. But I'm going to have to disagree with you. Take a look at Mathew 28:19-20 Can you tell me why this verse destroys everything you just wrote?

    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
     
  14. Darrell C

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    You are not considering that this is a Post-Cross statement.

    The fact is that the Disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Spirit until Pentecost:



    Acts 1

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    Again, Christ taught them of the Coming of the Comforter in John 14 and 16, and we see that this was a necessity for them to go out and preach the Gospel.

    When the Lord was taken the disciples did not continue in their ministry...they went fishing for fish again.

    Now, another example of a command that could not be fulfilled yet is found in John 15: "Abide in Me."

    Would you call Peter's betrayal of Christ...abiding?


    And I am about out of time for he day, so thanks for the response.



    God bless.
     
  15. Bob Hope

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    The point is, AFTER Christ died, He told them to go into ALL the world and teach the exact same message He had been teaching them. Nothing was to change since He has died. Pentecost did not change anything doctrinally.


    The Holy Spirit was around long before Christ died.

    Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
     
    #15 Bob Hope, Feb 17, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
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  16. Darrell C

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    So show me the Gospel of Jesus Christ taught by Christ to the disciples, Jews, or anyone else. It's that simple.

    I gave you one of the few examples of Christ speaking about the Gospel:


    Matthew 16:21-23

    King James Version (KJV)

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto
    Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


    Now, let's see when the Mystery of the Gospel was revealed:


    1 Corinthians 2:5-10

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



    It is the Spirit Who revealed the Gospel, the Spirit in His particular New Covenant Ministry which began at Pentecost.

    Would you agree that there is a new Era beginning with Pentecost? When the Spirit came?

    Paul wrote:

    Romans 16:25-26

    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    Christ taught:


    John 16:7

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



    Now when we look at the Comforter we understand He is the same Spirit Who has always ministered in the hearts of men, the difference being...the content of His message to men.

    What man can you find in either the Old Testament or the Gospels prior to Pentecost that were believing the Gospel, which, I would remind you, is simply defined by Paul...


    1 Corinthians 15

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



    ...?

    Peter?

    Peter was in opposition to the Gospel...he did everything he could to prevent Christ's Sacrifice and when he failed...denied he even knew Christ.

    The problem Peter had was he was not Baptized with the Spirit, but was, until Pentecost, a natural man ignorant of the Gospel. But that all changed on the very day of Pentecost when he and the other disciples went out and fulfilled the commandment of Christ.

    You say..."He told them to go into ALL the world and teach the exact same message He had been teaching them," and to an extent that is true. The difference being they were now empowered to understand Christ's teachings and place them in a proper context.

    If you go back to the quote in the previous post you will see the disciples ask in Acts, "Wilt thou at this time restore the Kingdom unto Israel."

    Even at this point, just days before Pentecost, they were still carnal in their understanding of the Messiah.


    But...will you acknowledge that something did change when He died?

    Do you understand the difference between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant which Christ established with His Death?


    Are you under Law?

    Why not?


    But the Holy Spirit did not minister as the Comforter, that is clear. He could not come until Christ had returned to Heaven:

    John 16:7

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



    We simply cannot ignore that there was a change, nor that at the time of this teaching the Comforter had not yet come.


    No-one denies the Holy Spirit has always ministered in the hearts of men, but, you cannot ignore the fact that Christ taught that the Comforter was coming. Now, it is up to you to understand the significance of this change, and when you do, you will understand better the magnitude of salvation in Christ.


    God bless.
     
  17. Bob Hope

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    Yes, I am under parts of the law. All has not been fulfilled yet. What gospel do you suppose Christ was teaching here?

    And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
     
  18. Darrell C

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    It is stated in the text: the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    Now what Kingdom would Israel have been aware of, and do we see that Kingdom defined by Christ?

    Again, it is not he Gospel of Jesus Christ, for this remains a mystery (unrevealed) until Pentecost.


    God bless.
     
  19. vooks

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    I can tell you for a fact that Ezekiel's temple will NEVER be rebuilt nor will any sacrifices carry on there.

    The other problem with dispensationalism is they claim to be founded on literalism but they freely depart from it to suit their pet doctrines.

    Had they been there with Nichodemus in John 3:4, they would have thought they were to be born afresh off their mothers' wombs
     
  20. Bob Hope

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    Just wait until Israel gets nuked to kick off WWIII. Many Baptist will think they missed the rapture.
     
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