Dispensationalists: Why is This Version of Israel THE One of Prophecy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by InTheLight, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    Israel has a long history of having a kingdom of power, then being judged and humbled, dominated by another government then dispersed. Then again elevated to power, being judged and humbled, dominated by another government, dispersed. Repeat.

    Why do you believe the Israel brought into being in May 1948 is the final version of Israel, God's chosen people?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I am a dispensationalist, but can't answer your question because I am not convinced that the modern state of Israel is the Israel of prophecy.

    In fact I am far from convinced. I have not seen one shred of Bible evidence.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    The Israel of prophecy:

    for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3

    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
    17 Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus.
    18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen. Gal 6

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

    For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

    But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    Alternative question then--What would be the necessary Biblical evidence that any particular Israel would be the Israel of end-time prophecy?

    The 144,000 virgin Jewish young men preaching the Gospel?

    The two witnesses preaching in Jerusalem?
     
  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    This Version of Israel THE One of Prophecy:

    for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3
     
  7. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    And not to mention, why do dispensationalists believe that God made a covenant with people based on genetics, when the Apostles--especially Paul--explain that the covenant was always with those of faith, not those "after the flesh."

    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called [] [see Gal 4:28 below].
    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the [physical] Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
    Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Jer 11:16 The Lord called thy name [Israel], A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them [Israel], and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [see Gal 6:16]

    Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    Yeah, that helps when you yell!

    So you're saying the church is the new Israel...

    So God revoked this promise?

    Gen 17:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

    9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised
     
    #8 InTheLight, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

    9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Geopolitical Israel is Old Covenant Israel composed mostly of genetic descendants of Abraham and some Gentile proselytes who followed the types and shadows of the Law. The true Israel at this time were still only those who were actually faithful to the covenant.

    The Church is New Covenant Israel composed of the "remnant" of Old Covenant Israel who embraced Messiah and were saved "according to the election of grace," and Gentiles also saved by grace "grafted in." The "Israel of God" is found dispersed in all nations. The promise to Abraham that he would be "the father of many nations" has been fulfilled in Christ Who is "the Seed to Whom the promise was made."


    If you can understand that the promise of Abraham never had to do with a genetically based racial privilege but only those who were faithful to God--Jew and Gentile--then it would make sense.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Worked though didn't it? You got it!

    The Church is the manifestation of the spiritual kingdom of God, made up of real Jews who are born from above of the heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all, OT & NT.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    Fair enough question. I contend that God may not let us know who is the true restored Israel is until He deals with them during the Tribulation. I just won't presume on Him and His way.

    And beside that - i might even be wrong in my eschatology. All of my pre's may not be the way it pans out in the end. If not, my faith in God's word will not be destroyed - just my faith in my reasoning skills :)
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    OK, I'll just tear out Genesis 17 out of my Bible. Along with Deut. 14:2.
     
  14. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, the physical descendants who did not keep the covenants were not children of promise, now were they? Only faithful Jews were covenant members.

    Gentiles did become proselytes in the Old Covenant:

    2Ch 2:17 And Solomon numbered all the strangers that were in the land of Israel, after the numbering wherewith David his father had numbered them; and they were found an hundred and fifty thousand and three thousand and six hundred.

    That's quite a number of Gentile proselytes who were citizens of Israel!

    So, no promise is made that is race-specific. The physical Jews had the advantage of revelation in that they could practice God's covenants first. However, only those who were faithful were heirs of the Promise. Gentile proselytes would also observe the covenant ordinances AND practice them with their descendants.

    Understand: Only faithful people--Jews and Gentiles--received the blessings of Abraham. All who are of faith are "the children of Abraham." There is NO--I repeat, NO--promise of God to anyone based merely on his or her genetics.

    Did I mention that God never made a promise of blessings to anyone based merely on their physical lineage?

    Oh, by the way, God made NO promise to anyone based on who he or she could claim as a physical ancestor.

    Mat 3:And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


    There. Is. NO. Promise. To. Anyone. Based. On. Genetics.


    Now, concerning the "problem" of covenants and ordinances "forever," (found in the Old Covenant), let's look at an example:

    Num 18:8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
    ...
    Num 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.


    ...yet...

    Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    ...
    Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
    Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


    The "covenant of salt" was considered a very strong, binding agreement. yet, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek replaced the order of Aaron to which quite a few "forever" ordinances were made. Since Christ is priest forever in this order, there will never again be a legitimate Levitical priest to receive heave offerings. These "forever" ordinances were "forever" in terms of endurance of the Old Covenant itself. Since God "[made] a new covenant with the house of Judah and with the house of Israel" (Jer 31:31), once it was inaugurated, the Old Covenant passed away, along with its "forever" ordinances.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    The land promises were conditional upon obedience,they did not obey...but were covenant breakers.

    ITL...can it be fulfilled this way???? what do you think???
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  16. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I just explained in my most recent post, Genesis 17 was the Old Covenant, that has been done away, unless you think that you must still be circumcised; in which case Paul has a lot to say.

    Old Covenant Israel was the geopolitical instrument that God used to show His holiness to the world through His law (of types and shadows of Christ).

    Just as Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, so New Covenant Israel--the Church in Christ--is the fulfillment of Old Covenant Israel.

    The magnificent language found in the epistles is not some temporary "parenthesis" in a story about a legitimately law-bound nation of physical descendants of Abraham!

    1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
    1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    [sigh] I'll repeat some of what AresMan has already posted using another version [ASV] maybe that will help:

    6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
    7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

    Now read that over slowly ten times, that should do it.
     
  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,186
    Likes Received:
    611
    AresMan, Kyredneck, Icon, thanks for the information. I'm definitely mulling it over.
     
  19. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Israel kinda sounds like my life...just saying...;)

    The final version of Israel ended at the Babylonian captivity in 586 BC.

    More directly, Israel as the chosen people of God ended at the ushering in of the New Covenant. One might even extend it a bit (which isn't needed) and say that the formal religious (though not God honoring) function of Israel ended in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple.

    There is, imho, no eschatological reconstruction of the OT People of God, that is Israel.

    Also, (I'm just covering my bases...or loading my guns...) there has never been genetic salvation for all born Israelites. There has always, always been tests of faithfulness and salvation only extended to the faithful of Israel. Those Israelites who were not faithful to God's ways and worship were cut off and excluded in their lives.

    The faithless Jewish people who spurn the Messiah continue in this trend. However, all Jews (there aren't anymore Israelites) can receive salvation as they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. There is no eschatological dual dovenant for the Jewish people and the Christian people.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The nation of Israel is no longer the chosen nation of God and will never again be. With the Incarnation and crucifixion their part in God's purpose of Salvation was finished!
     

Share This Page

Loading...