Dispensationalists

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Repent_and_Believe, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. Repent_and_Believe

    Repent_and_Believe
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    Hey, just wanted to see how some of you view Dispensationalism. I am studying it at present. Am reading Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth"

    I do not subscribe completely to Dispensationalism. While I see some of its tenets as true I believe that alot of words have been taken incorrectly and a system of theology built on a false foundation of that interpretation of scripture.

    However, I do not call Dispensationalists false teachers, heretics and will certainly not separate from them in fellowship. As a matter of fact that church I go to is Dispensational. The spirt there is one of love and understanding and that is why I enjoy it so much. My reading of the scriptures and understanding of it allows me to avoid some of the pitfalls of Dispensationalism.

    I also understand the intent of Dispensationalists and its not to intentionally cause folks to be deceived about the coming of the Lord. Thus so much for wolves in sheep's clothing mentality that some take about Dispensationalists.

    I would like hear from you folks on this system of theology. Its definitely a system and like any system I think that it has some fatal flaws.

    Larkin believed in the Gap Theory for instance but my church doesnt not fully support that position. Thus learn this rule - Dispensationalists are not in complete agreement on scripture (noone is right?) and thus there is no ONE and ONLY version of it out there to be had.

    Again, a loving caring attitude is the key to dealing with anyone that you dont agree with.

    I am thankful for the many examples of kindness that have been shown by my pastors, past and present that have shown me how to deal with those that do not take the same position as myself. I beleive that reacting incorrectly to another person's position is often as wrong as those the hold a incorrect position!

    Christ taught us to love one another, to rebuke when needed but in trying to help someone to understand a position we take the kind road is much preferable to the "RIGHT" road.

    It is possible to be both right and firmly rebuke at the same time but with the right spirit at that same time. I believe that Jesus showed us that in dealing with the Pharisees.
     
  2. 3John2

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    Good attitude on your part. As for me I started out as a dispensationalist but lately have really started to back away from that. I even would venture to say I'm leaning towards a Reformed/Covenantel position at this time. Too many loose ends with the dispensationalist point of view.
     
  3. Craigbythesea

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    Are you asking for our opinion or preaching a sermon to us? :D

    I believe that dispensationalism is a neo-modernist system of theology invented by a man named J.N. Darby who spent too much time hanging around 15-year-old girls that passed the time speaking in tongues and telling of strange visions. And not surprisingly, this neo-modernist system of theology has a hypnotic effect upon many who get involved with it, the result of which is that they are deluded into believing that the Bible actually teaches such non-sense. :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. lilrabbi

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    I've been studying convenant theology closely now for 2 years. I'm still trying to understand it. There are a lot more 'loose ends' and assumptions in Covenant theology than in Dispensationalism, IMHO. I have utmost respect for reformed writers because I agree with them on their calvinism, but their covenantal approach to scripture is very odd.

    Craigbythesea - I'm glad you can attack the theological system as opposed to the person, oh wait!

    The "if its new its wrong" mentality is just silly. Tenets of Dispensationalism are clearly seen in the works from the early church. Doctrines are assumptions widely held until attacked. Its at that point that they are thought through and systematized. By the same criteria, it could be argued that nearly every doctrine we now have, as we have it, is "new, therefore wrong."
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    This is an orignial essay by ed (it is not yet
    a polished, edited re-writing) not yet finished:

    Dispensation is Strongs: G3622
    [greek letters distort in my posting process]
    oikonomia
    oy-kon-om-ee'-ah
    From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.

    This is the Greek word from which we get our
    English word "economy'.

    1Co 9:17 (KJV1611):
    For if I doe this thing willingly,
    I haue a reward: but if against my will,
    a dispensation of the Gospel is committed vnto me.


    Eph 1:10 (KJV1611):
    That in the dispensation of the fulnesse of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heauen, and which are on earth, euen in him:

    Eph 3:2 (KJV1611):
    If ye haue heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, which is giuen me to youward: If ye haue heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, which is giuen me to youward:


    Col 1:25 (KJV1611):
    Whereof I am made a Minister, according to the dispensation of God, which is giuen to mee for you, to fulfill the word of God:

    Notice in Ephesians 1:10 that God's economy includes all
    of what we call time.

    Um, i gotta run to work.

    In God's economy (including even the time after we get
    our deluxe bodies) the blind see, the deaf hear, the
    lame leap, the poor are rich, and the fat are lean (sorry,
    i'm a bit overweight and the thin man within me made
    me put that in ;) ). In God's economy (this statement is
    proved elsewhere in this forum) 1 day = 1 hour,
    1 day = 1,000 years.
     
  6. Paul33

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    Walter Kaiser, President of Gordon-Conwell, in his book Toward an Old Testament Theology, advocates "Promise" as the grid that should be used to interpret Scripture as opposed to "covenants" or "dispensations."

    The problem I have with "classic two-people, two-plans of God" dispensationalism is that it forces numerous passages of Scripture to fit the system rather than letting Scripture speak for itself.

    The false dichotomy between OT (Jewish) Israel and NT (Gentile) Church leads to many false interpretations.

    Israel, as God's chosen people, has been expanded to include gentile believers with the initiation of the New Covenant by Jesus with his Jewish disciples. This "expanded" people of God, called the church (consisting of believeing Jews and believing Gentiles) is the mystery of the gospel. The first church was Jewish, and the first apostles were Jewish. Therefore, classic dispensationalism has got it all wrong.

    Terms:

    Israel - believing and non-believing ethnic Jews.

    True Israel - believing Jews, the remnant of Israel

    Church - believing Jews and believing Gentiles (the remant of Israel and the grafted in Gentiles of Romans 9-11).

    Therefore the land promises given to Israel will be fulfilled to Israel by True Israel which is part of the Church. As grafted in Gentiles, we participate in the blessings of the New Covenant and the fulfillment of promises to True Israel. As God's people, the church will reign with Christ over the nations of the world during the millenium, with 1/3 of the nation of Israel converted and serving as the head of the nations (Zech 13-14).
     
  7. Paul33

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    Having abandoned classic dispensationalism but not yet embracing "replacement" theology which seems to be the norm for Covenant Theology, I didn't know what to call myself.

    Apparently, there is a branch of dispensationalism called Progressive Dispensationalism that reflects my beliefs almost exactly.

    I would encourage you to look at the following web site and read the articles on Progressive Dispensationalism. I, like the author, am Post-trib, but he confesses that most Progressive Dispensationalists are pre-trib. But once a person understands the true nature of God's Plan, an honest assessment of the Scriptures would lead one to move to a post-trib position.

    http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Something for you to consider. Does the Bible talk about Covenants or Dispensations?
     
  9. OldRegular

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    Dispensationalism as a system of Biblical interpretation was formally promulgated about 1830 by John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth [England] Brethren. [Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] Irving was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’ which is the bedrock of dispensational eschatology.] The dispensational system of interpretation, with its emphasis on Old Testament prophecy, began at a time when many of the established churches ignored Biblical prophecy. Darby’s emphasis on prophecy, therefore, captured the interest and perhaps the imagination of many. Darby visited the United States six times between 1859 and 1874 [John Newport in The Lion and the Lamb, page 100]. His teaching apparently exerted considerable influence on his contemporaries, particularly E. I. Scofield. The publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which made the system of dispensational interpretation an integral part of the Bible notes, had a significant impact on the spread of dispensational thought.

    Charles C. Ryrie in Chapter 4 of Dispensationalism argues that the beginning of dispensational thought is much earlier. He asserts that Pierre Poiret, a French philosopher and mystic, published a rudimentary system of dispensations in 1687 and that Isaac Watts [1674-1748] developed an outline of dispensations that essentially paralleled that in the Scofield Bible, with the exception of the millennium. There is no indication, however, that either of these men believed that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church which according to Ryrie [page 39] is the basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist. The question is not whether there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church, there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church.

    The dispensational view of the return of Jesus Christ is currently one of the most popular views in the churches [and perhaps outside the churches]. This view has been popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible and such popular novels as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth and, more recently, the Left Behind Series by Tim Lehaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. As indicated above, however, dispensationalism is a system of Bible interpretation of which eschatology is but a part.

    While I vigorously disagree with the dispensational doctrine of eschatology that is not their most grievous error. God will in His own time and in His own way bring all things to an end with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ regardless of any views the dispensationalists might express.

    As far as I am concerned the most previous error of dispensationalism is their doctrine of the Church.

    1. Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.” [So according to Ryrie a lot of people who claim to be dispensationalists don’t know what they are. They apparently just hope to escape tribulation and death if they can only hurry up the so -called pre-trib rapture.]

    2. Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ or “intercalculation?” form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis or intercalculation in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.

    In His prayer for the Church as recorded in the 17th chapter of the Gospel according to John Jesus Christ declares:

    John 17:4, KJV
    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


    This Scripture clearly and decisively refutes the claim of dispensationalists that that Jesus Christ failed to accomplish the mission for which He was sent and that He instead established the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, which, according to their doctrine, is unknown in the Old Testament. Dispensational writers tend to ignore the message of John 17:4. The Scofield, Ryrie, and MacArthur study bibles all fail to comment on this passage.

    Early in the ministry of Jesus Christ, immediately after His self revelation to the Samaritan woman at Jacobs well [John 4:25,26], replies to a question from one of His disciples as follows: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work [ John 4:34, KJV ].

    That Jesus Christ came to do the Father’s will follows naturally from the unity and harmony that must exist in the Triune Godhead and is consistent with the Covenant of Grace. Why then did Jesus Christ find it necessary to make the statement recorded in John 4:34? He did it for the benefit of those who heard and for the benefit of countless Saints who have read the Gospels since then. The Apostle John clearly teaches this near the close of his Gospel.

    John 20:30-31, KJV
    30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


    In Chapter 6 of John’s Gospel Jesus Christ again teaches that He came to do the will of the Father. The occasion follows the feeding of the 5,000 and the teaching of Jesus Christ to those from the crowd who afterwards followed Him from the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee to Capernaum. [According to The Harmony of the Gospels by A. T. Robertson, a Southern Baptist and recognized authority of the Greek language, this event occurs after the encounter with the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well.] The Scripture passage of concern, verses 35-40, deals with the salvation and ultimate resurrection of the elect.

    John 6:35-40, KJV
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Notice in particular verse 38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. As previously indicated in John 4:34, Jesus Christ came to do the will of God the Father. Whatever He did at any time and any place was consistent with the will of God the Father. To put it in todays jargon, Jesus never ‘freelanced’ or ‘did His own thing’.

    As the work of Jesus Christ on earth drew to a close and before His sorrow in Gethsemne, He prayed to the Father for His Church as follows:

    John 17:1-5, KJV
    1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


    Jesus Christ had said early in His ministry My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Now near the end of His ministry Jesus Christ tells the Father [John 17:4]. I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. What does Jesus Christ mean by these words? Simply this. Whatever He came to do, He started and He finished. What else can it mean? Moreover, as is also shown in John 6:38, whatever He did was the will of the Father. By His own words He finished the work that the Father gave Him to do and He did only the work that the Father sent Him to do. In Matthew 16:13-18 Jesus Christ clearly and unambiguously announces that He will build His Church. Since He established the Church while He was here He obviously came to establish the Church in its New Testament form.

    If Jesus Christ came to establish the ‘earthly’ Messianic Kingdom, He would have established it, otherwise He would not have been able to say to the Father I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. To claim that Jesus Christ came to establish such a kingdom but failed in that task and established the Church instead is to deny the words of Jesus Christ Himself. To do so is to call into question either the truthfulness and deity of Jesus Christ or the sovereignty of God. The truth of the matter is that the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews was for the simple reason that He did not fulfill their carnal desire for an ‘earthly’ Messianic Kingdom that would throw off the yoke of Rome.

    Not all the Jews, however, rejected Jesus Christ. There were those who, like Nathanael, declared Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel [John 1:49] or who, like Peter, declared Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God [Matthew 16:16]. Those Jews who exercised such faith were born again into the Kingdom of God [or as Paul writes in Colossians 1:13] translated into the kingdom of his dear Son and formed the nucleus of the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, holy and without blemish [Ephesians 5:27].

    Jesus Christ came to purchase His Bride [Revelation 21:2, 9], the Church, with His own blood [Acts 20:28]. That Church is the fellowship, the household, of all those who are redeemed to God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, those chosen in Him from the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father and only the will of the Father and that He did, saying on the cross: It is finished [John 19:30].

    It is well worth noting at this point that The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. We see, therefore, that what Ryrie calls the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist is contrary to the Southern Baptist Faith and Message.
     
  10. av1611jim

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    Old Regular;
    Your extensive post assumes one grievious error.
    Jesus did NOT fail His appointed task. You assume we think He did fail. That is your error.
    Jesus freely offered the Kingdom to Isreal. Their reply was "We will not have THIS MAN to rule over us." Jesus was sent to do many things, among which was establish the church. But the church was not the ONLY thing He came to do. He did everything He was sent to do. His offer of the Kingdom was just as legit as His offer of salvation. Just because some reject that, it does not mean He failed. That is your error.

    Everything else in your post crumbles when viewed in this light. :D
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  11. OldRegular

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    You need to read the post again. I do not claim that Jesus Christ failed in His given task. I present Scripture to show that He did not fail. It is the dispensationalists who claim that he failed. Also can you quote one verse of Scripture to show that he ever made an offer of an earthly kingdom?

    Please note that I stated: The truth of the matter is that the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews was for the simple reason that He did not fulfill their carnal desire for an ‘earthly’ Messianic Kingdom that would throw off the yoke of Rome.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Many premills include Hal Lindsey saying, Messiahanic Kingdom of Israel was postponed delay till future at the second coming. Because Jews of Israel reject Jesus as their Messiah. (In their mind, Christ seems failed them). But, Christ does not postpone it, He already bring the kingdom of God/heaven to earth at his first coming for the purpose of gospel. Christ removed Israel(physical nation) and gave it to other nation(Gentiles). Same with Romans chapter 11, God removed unbelieving Jews from the Olive tree, but believing Jews remain stay on the same tree, God just added Gentiles join with believing Jews together on the same.

    Paul33 explains it very well. I agree with him, that what the true defintion of Israel, what it is.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Amen Brother, Preach it! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. av1611jim

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    You need to read the post again. I do not claim that Jesus Christ failed in His given task. I present Scripture to show that He did not fail. It is the dispensationalists who claim that he failed. Also can you quote one verse of Scripture to show that he ever made an offer of an earthly kingdom?

    Please note that I stated: The truth of the matter is that the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews was for the simple reason that He did not fulfill their carnal desire for an ‘earthly’ Messianic Kingdom that would throw off the yoke of Rome.
    </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________

    No sir. YOU need to read my comments again. I said, "YOU ASSUME WE THINK HE FAILED. THIS IS YOUR ERROR."

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  15. Paul33

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    Old Regular, Deafpostrib,

    Amen and Amen!

    It is almost impossible to discuss theology with classic dispensationalists. It doesn't matter what the text says, their Israel/church dichotomy determines their interpretation.

    Two-plan, two people of God, parenthetical church, two first resurections, two last trumpets, etc. etc.

    Truly sad.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    OldRegular: "As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] Irving was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’ which is the bedrock of dispensational eschatology.]"

    Interesting, I was a Biblical dispensationalist for 35
    years before i even heard about a "secret rapture'.
    I note here that NO DISPENSATIONALIST brought the term
    'secret rapture' into this discussion. Therefore it is a
    strawman. But i do commend Brother OldRegular for rightly
    demolishing that evil strawman.

    I also note the tendancy to attack everything not a-mill
    instead of delineating and defending a-mill. I think i'll
    just largely ignore the three a-mill positions being discussed
    here and study my Bible. I notice nobody wanted to touch
    the four scriptures in the Bible containing the word
    'dispensation'. Anybody for sticking to the topic of this
    Topic?

    I notice that all these mentions of 'dispensation' are within
    one verse (in the same paragraph) as a mystery.
    While i study that some more, here is my writing on
    Mysteries:

    -------------------------------------------------

    The New Testament Mysteries point to
    the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

    1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

    Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
    10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
    "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
    11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
    has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
    OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
    not been given.

    The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
    given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

    I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
    describe the Church Age. The Church Age
    goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
    During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
    humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
    to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
    This period in HIS-story can also be called
    "the age of the gentiles".

    2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

    Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
    For I do not desire, brethren, that you
    should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
    should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
    in part has happened to Israel until the
    fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26. And so all Israel will be saved,

    I've had several interesting discussions
    with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
    prospects that when the last possible gentile
    (Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
    as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
    resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
    Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
    of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


    3. Mystery of the Rapture

    1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
    but we will all be changed -- ...

    1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

    Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
    looking for the blessed hope and
    glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
    Christ

    Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
    when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
    for after the tribulation there will only be a few
    handfuls of living saints.


    4. Mystery of His Will

    Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
    And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
    to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
    10 to be put into effect when the times will have
    reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
    in heaven and on earth together under one head,
    even Christ.
    11 In him we were also chosen, having
    been predestined according to the plan of him who
    works out everything in conformity with
    the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
    Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

    May God's will be done!

    From Eternity past God has intended
    to bring all things together in Christ.

    This joining inclues the gentile church and
    the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
    rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.


    5. Mystery of Christ:
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

    Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

    2 Surely you have heard about the administration
    of God's grace that was given to me for you,
    3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
    as I have already written briefly.
    4 In reading this, then, you will be able
    to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
    5 which was not made known to men in other generations
    as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
    to God's holy apostles and prophets.
    6 This mystery is that through the gospel
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
    members together of one body, and sharers
    together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
    7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
    gift of God's grace given me through the working
    of his power.
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
    people, this grace was given me: to preach to
    the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
    of this mystery, which for ages past was
    kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church,
    the manifold wisdom of God should be made
    known to the rulers and authorities in
    the heavenly realms,
    11 according to his eternal purpose
    which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    12 In him and through faith in him
    we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

    This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
    define "mystery".

    The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
    are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
    At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.

    BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
    in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
    in the KJV1769.


    6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

    Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

    for we are members of his body.
    31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
    and mother and be united to his wife,
    and the two will become one flesh."
    32 This is a profound mystery--but I
    am talking about Christ and the church.
    33 However, each one of you also must
    love his wife as he loves himself,
    and the wife must respect her husband

    Revelation 19: (NIV):

    Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear."
    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

    Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
    before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
    or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


    7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

    John 15:4 (NIV)
    Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
    No branch can bear fruit by itself;
    it must remain in the vine.
    Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    Galations 2:20 (NIV)
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no
    longer live, but Christ lives in me.
    The life I live in the body, I live
    by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
    and gave himself for me.

    Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
    For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

    Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
    the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
    and generations, but is now disclosed
    to the saints.
    27 To them God has chosen to make known
    among the Gentiles the glorious
    riches of this mystery, which is
    Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
    beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
    within each saint!

    What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
    ALL GLORY!

    What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


    8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

    Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
    attaining to all riches
    of the full assurance of understanding, to the
    knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
    the Father and of Christ,

    1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
    the hidden wisdom which God ordained
    before the ages for our glory.

    Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
    this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
    certainly before the Church Age.
    And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
    in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
    which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

    How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
    God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
    as some nay-sayers promote?


    9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

    This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
    master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
    in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
    Will Jesus let His Church be around when
    the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
    For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
    work; only He who now restrains will do so
    until He is taken out of the way.
    And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

    Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
    pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
    2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
    in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

    [2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
    2. Day of Christ:
    -2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
    --removal of the restrainer
    -2b. the revelation of the man of sin
    -2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
    -2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    -2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
    But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
    you and guard you from the evil one.

    And this is all summed up in one word:

    '\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


    10. Mystery of Godliness

    1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
    And without controversy great
    is the mystery of Godliness:

    God was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.

    And that is just what God had done up
    to the time of the writing.
    Later He will:

    Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
    Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
    Return to earth at the Second Advent
    Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
    Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


    11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

    Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
    The mystery of the seven stars which you
    saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
    lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
    the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
    which you saw are the seven churches.

    Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
    the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
    in double completeness.
    And when the church on earth is complete,
    the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
    And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
    take place in heaven as the Tribulation
    takes place on earth.


    12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

    This mystery forcasts the final
    world apostate church of
    the Tribulation after the Rapture.

    Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

    And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY,
    BABYLON THE GREAT,
    THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
    ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


    13. Mystery of God

    This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
    program to consummate history during the
    the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

    All the mystery prophecies concerning the
    Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
    relevant to Israel
    and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

    Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
    but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
    angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
    of God would be finished, as He declared
    to His servants the prophets.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    And then there is the mystery called Darbyism/Scofieldism/dispensationalism. :D
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Don't forget three persons in the blessed Trinity, 5 Resurrections, 5 Judgements, 5 tribualtions -- tee hee, the three 5's are the titles of some of my pretribulation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Advent (in two phases), Classic Dispensational,
    non-Darbian eschatology. If you wish, feel free to call my eschatology EDism [​IMG] but only if you think it will further EDify the Bretheren and Cistern [​IMG]

    Two-plan - working on a writing, but how ever many plans God has, it is ONE PLAN

    two people of God -- The Economy of God is eternal. In the eternal economy of God there is
    one people. In the details God can have as many people as He wishes. I know of one people in the Church age: the mostly gentile (but including a few Messanic Jews) born-again, redeemed, saved-from-the-fire Christian elect saints. There are other people in other ages.

    parenthetical church - AMen, Brother - PReach it!

    two first resurections - Contrast to those who add to Revelation 20:5 so it reads "first and only". I went to college. First i went to Secondary school for four grades (9-12). Note here that 'first' is related to the number 'four'. But even though I graduate
    from High School (Secondary School) /it was 1961/ FIRST i went to Grammar School for 8 grades (1-8). Note here that 'first' is related to the number 'eight'.

    two last trumpets - remind me to tell about the six million+ first trumpets :eek:
     
  19. lilrabbi

    lilrabbi
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    Ed - I'm with you. I'm young, was first introduced to the dispensationalism from the crowd that puts the rapture in the forefront as the primary doctrine...but then I read "The Greatness of the Kingdom" and I'm where you are now.
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince
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    Been more concerned with my son than theological debate of late, but hope to be able to return to some discussion. Alva McClain's work, "The Greateness of the Kingdom" is a classic. Hope to pick up here in a few days. Still never got back to cessationism and 1Cor 13. Not even sure I can find that one now.
     

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