Dispinsationalism

Hank: // To be honest, as far as I can tell, it was Mary Macdonald/John Nelson Darby who made it a "secret" snatching away as a "thief in the night" of the elect.

This apparently they extracted from the writings of a couple of Jesuits translating from the Latin rapt-uro, rapt-is, etc stems. \\

I do not bother to teach Mary Macdonald (whose 'revelations' appeared in 1960s & 1970s. In fact, the whole post-trib only resurrection and in the pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurist mode -- was revealed to me as NEWS (i.e. not HISTORY, it happend in my lifetime). The old a-milllennial (the millennium is a spirital truth to be spiritually discerned & understood) theory (pre 20th century, 1901-2000) had two branches:

The Post-tribulation ONLY resurrection (no seperate 'rapture').

The a-tribulation theory: the tribulation is a spiritual truth to be understood when you are being persecuted -- the tribulation is a natural part of life and the Christ beleiving experience -- stick around, you will feel it for yourseves.

Seems to me if one is going to be a-mill ,might as well be a-trib (wrong, but at least consistent)


Hank: // At least they seem to be the originators of that part of the "rapture" doctrine. I have never seen it portrayed as a "secret" event in the writings of the Early Church Fathers (ECF). \\

Amen, Brother Hank. That is exactly why I am pre-trib CAUGHT-UP and pre-millennial Second Coming Complete. In fact, I even beleive in a post-trib Resurrection/rapture as well as a pre-tribulation resurrection/RAPTURE. Both the pre-trib event (marking the BEGINNING of the Second Advent of Jesus) and the post-trib event (marking the End of the Second Advent of Jesus) are just like in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 .

(please put the period after a scripture, if at all, after a space. Us seeing impaired folks might want to cut & paste your scripture and that is almost an impossibly small distance from the number to the period to hit with a cursor while holding the left mouse key down. OBTH, i am a bit shakey mousing also. Thank you for your consideration of this request.)

Anyway, all the trumpeting , Archangel shouts, and Messanic yelling -- it is LITERALLY loud enough to WAKE THE DEAD (in Christ). It is no secret 'coming', when Jesus comes to get his own.​

 

OK brother. I try to make room for everyone in my virtual pew when it comes to eschatology (all other things considered).

OK, I'll try to remember to put a spaced period after the scripture references or just leave it out. I have 5 pairs of glasses on my desk so I understand poor eyesight.

Also, I have a shakey memory and its getting worse.

Hmm, what were we taking about?

HankD

 

Lastday

Ed Edwards and HankD,

I consider you two (and I think Allan too) as having the best grasp of the
doctrinal ramifications of Dispensationalism. I differed a little with Allan, but he agrees with us that God has a future Plan for the two Houses of Israel being reunited as ONE Nation.

Ed, after missing discussions with you for more than 4 years since January of 2006, I notice you now include both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib Raptures in your
view. My brother and I also spar with each other in a friendly way by his holding to both views as well...while I stick to the Post-Trib view only.
You wrote to Hank:

This is the first time I have read of anyone corresponding Daniel's entire 70th "7" with the "Second Advent of Jesus"! I include the 2nd half of "3.5 Times"
as the period in which Christ will come in "Kingdom Power through the Two
Prophets to oppose the Beast"!! But I limit the use of the term "Second Advent" to the actual appearance of Jesus with all the Saints on the Day of
His and God's Wrath...during the "Hour of Testing" on the Day He appears in glory with all the Saints!!!

Ed, do you see a problem in your over-all view that I think may not jive with the "Second Advent" being restricted to Christ's coming "to gather the elect in the days after great tribulation" stated by Him in Mark 13:24-27 ?

Do you think I have a problem to believe Christ is coming in "Kingdom Power"
thru the Two Prophets before He appears in Person...in "Power and in great Glory"?

At least His Second Advent also includes the redemption of both Houses of Israel on the "single" Day of the Lord! And now, since 2008, I think that day will occur in 2033 as it alone may/could fulfill His return "after two days; on the third day" to fulfill Hosea 5:14 to 6:2 !! But I still don't know if Israel's
Messiah will appear for them on Saturday at the "last day"...or on Sunday as the first Day of the New Millennium!!!
Mel

 

Greetings brother mel,

you have a detailed view of eschatology beyond anything I have seen (perhaps with an exception or two) and to be honest sometimes I get lost in the details you present.

There is a view that the "snatching away" of the saints just before "Jacobs Trouble" will be in accord with Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Notice the tares are gathered "to burn", an infinitive form of the verb "burn" with a definite article (i.e. gather them for the burning) and though they are gathered first "the burning" itself may have the force of the future tense.

The wheat on the other hand are to be gathered into His barn, no doubt to protect them from the raging fire of the burning of the tares which the true children of God are to only witness.

Psalm 91:6

7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation.​

In other words the elect will be here on earth protected somehow (by angelic activity) from the firestorm after which comes the harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

An interesting view (IMO).
Seems to be a modified post tribulation view.​

HankD​

 

Lastday

Thank you very much for the accolade; but I don't measure up to your ability to express ideas. If we were "knighted" as members in a spiritual Knights of a Round Table, I hope we would seek to qualify in preventing quarrels among others of like minds; but with none seeking a higher place than the others.

Because of years of discussions with my brother, Ted Miller who worked for
Ken Taylor at Tyndale Publishing House many years; and who is a staunch
Pre-Tribber, I have learned to share our views based on the same Scripture.

Your reference to Matt.13:30, in my view, requires the great armies to be gathered to Armageddon before they are "burned"; and so the Son of Man FIRST "reaps the earth (symbolically to fulfill Matt.13:30; aorist passive indicative) with His sharp sickle". Rev.14:14-16. An angel directs the Son of Man to reap (2325) the earth before the Angel of Fire directs a third angel to "gather (5166; aorist active imperative) the fully ripe fruit (so-called 'grapes of wrath') and he gathered and he cast them (aorist active indicative; past tense) into the great winepress of God's thumos (anger; not wrath)! Rev.14:17-19.

The fully ripe fruit are gathered to Armageddon "literally" before the three angels gather and cast them symbolically into God's "winepress of anger".
This action precedes the "treading of the winepress" and allows the Three- Act Drama to occur in the Temple of Heaven before Christ descends to "gather the Elect from earth and to send the angels to gather (pan) all believers to Himself" (pan means all, every saint) before He "treads the grapes of wrath" at Armageddon. The thumos of Rev.14:19 "fills the cup
of God's orgay" (Rev.14:10) after the last Plague implodes!! Rev.16:18-21.

The final warning of Rev.14:10, of God's impending anger and wrath, awaits
the "Hour of Trial coming on all inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" as
Christ descends with all the Saints. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-26. This Hour allows the Jews to "mourn and pray to escape all these things happening after they see the Sign of the Son of Man". They are "kept (preserved) from that Hour on the Day of the Apocalypse" (Luke 17:30-33) while the Saints
prepare for the Lamb's Wedding which is not announced as "having come" until moments before He descends at the "great trumpet to gather the Elect upon and out of the 4 winds to the gathering place in the sky"!!!
Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

IMO, the "gathering place (synagogue) of 2 Thess.2:1 is the meeting place in the air of I Thess.4:17 ! Because "God will bring all those who sleep in Jesus with Him" (I Thess.4:14)...including the martyrs of the great tribulation, the two prophets just killed 3 or 4 days before Christ APPEARS and the 144,000 Jewish "Firstfruit" of the living!! The 144,000 are raised up (rescued from Mt. Zion) on the Day of Wrath..."God brings all of these WITH Jesus" to meet all who are gathered on the 4 winds"...after the last Plague empties in the air!!!
Mel

 

Thanks mel, that's a lot to sift through.

HankD

 

Lastday

Thanks Hank,
In "sifting" through all the details of Lastday Events, please note the obvious
GAP between "the gathering TO the winepress of ANGER" in Rev.14:17-19 and the "treading OF that winepress" in Rev.14:20...as of Rev.19:15. The armies must be gathered literally by the Evil Trio over the 180 mile area in Israel called the "winepress of His anger" before the Temple opens and the Court sits to judge them guilty of having refused to "repent" under the judgments of six Trumpets and five Plagues. They are "gathered literally to Armageddon before all the Martyrs (and 144,000 and Two Witnesses) enter the open Temple so that the Angel of Fire may present the evidence against them, offer the Prayers of the Saints to God and for the 7th Trumpet to proclaim "God's wrath has come"!

Rev.7:9-17 and Rev.8:1-5 and Rev.11:12-19 occur during the GAP. Then God's "anger fills the cup of wrath" to begin the Hour of Testing...still
during the GAP between the "gathering and the treading of the winepress".
Because "God has begun to reign" as of the 7th Trumpet and "with all the saints rejoicing in heaven" (Rev.11:15-17; Rev.18:20-19:9), the GAP ends
with Christ descending to "destroy the destroyers of earth". That is when
"He treads the winepress in ANGER AND WRATH"!! Rev.19:11-15.

I wish to remove any doubt here over the absence of any reference in the
Book of Revelation to a gathering of the Saints. John mentions the coming of
the "called, Elect and faithful with the Lamb" (Rev.17:14) and thus assumes He APPEARS with them during the Hour of Trial...either 3 or 4 days after the Two Prophets are killed. The Events between the Signs of the Day of Wrath in Seal 6 and Christ's execution of that wrath occur within 5 or 6 hours on that Day until His descent to "tread the winepress in anger and wrath"!!!

So the GAP is limited to these 5 or 6 hours which include the Hour of Testing for Israel that occurs either on Saturday (Noon to 6 PM) or else it includes the "Twilight hour" on Sunday! This is their Havdallah ceremony for expecting the coming of their Messiah with the Saints"!! Zech.14:5-7. In that Hour the Son of Man may "gather the Elect from earth" for the private Wedding in the sky!!!
Mel

 

I'll wait a few more days for proof on Cuninghame. At some point, I want to talk about Joseph Mede. Did he really believe in the rapture? I have never found proof, so I would like to see this as well.

Also...Eph 1 ...

Is the church predestinated to Heaven while the Jewish nation is predestinated to something else? OR...is this the same salvation?

 

I have given you more than you asked for.. if you wish to remain willingly ignorant, I can do nothing about it.

Just because he doesn't use the 'word' rapture does not in any sense mean he does not hold to it. Just as the early church fathers for the first 400+ years held to a post rapture.. they still held to it even if they did not describe it/call it such..

Can you show me in scripture where you find the word 'trinity'.. if it isn't there then by your assumption.. it was never something believed or held to.

Eph 1.
I already answered you on it.. go back and read it..
If there is something there you didn't understand.. ask about it.

 

Lastday

JArthur and Allan,

I notice that James keeps inserting a question that does not pertain to
the main thrust of your discussions regarding the first time when it was
clear about the relation of the Rapture, the SC and Dispensationalism.
James asks for at least the third time:

James also writes:

Allan, I believe your answer to his question could not be improved:

I think James confuses the question of whether salvation is the same for
both OT and NT Saints, whether Jews or Gentiles, WITH or in contrast to whether the future inheritance of the reunited Houses of Ephraim and Judah is different from that of the Bride of the Lamb. He does not make it clear that "one salvation" applies to all those saved before the SC and your answer applies to the salvation of the Nation of Israel and Judah at/after Christ's SC. I think you have shown the difference; but James keeps asking the same question.

You, Allan, made this clear::

 

It would take Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four to reach that one

Wow, comparing the rapture to the trinity. I've seen a few stretches in my day, but few equal that one. Make that a double Wow!

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned in the bible. There is no mention of people actually flying up into the sky. Nothing but a verse grossly misinterpreted to stand on and of course the sound wisdom of John Darby that there is a rapture.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

So, this is all you have?

You base pre-Darby rature teaching on 2 phrases?

1) Meet the Lord in the air
Which I cannot find in the book. I don't deny it is in there, it very well could be. But I would like to read it in context. Do you have a page number for me?

2) Secret retreat in the wilderness (speaking of the church)
Which is talking about the Reformation.

Ok...If that is it, lets move to something else.

Joseph Mede.

Where is your proof he believed in the rapture?

I have yet to ask for the word rapture. This would be silly, because I know when it 1st came into theology.

get real and stop playing games. You have the proof or you don't.

Yes you did anwsered Thanks. ...and I replied.

Is the church predestinated to Heaven while the Jewish nation is predestinated to something else?

 

Lastday

JArthur,

Why do you keep asking Allan the following question as if he has not answered it? You ended your last post with repeating: "Is the church predestined to Heaven while the Jewish nation is predestined to something else? Allan, I think, agrees the Church and Israel is "One Building Now". But you seem to disregard the promised future reunion of Israel and Judah as "One Nation"!

I think you confuse the question of whether salvation is the same for
both OT and NT Saints, whether Jews or Gentiles, WITH whether the future inheritance of the reunited Houses of Ephraim and Judah is different from that of the Bride of the Lamb. Allan agrees that "one salvation" applies to all those saved before the SC. I believe he would agree to the salvation of the Nation of Israel and Judah at/after Christ's SC. I think he has shown the difference; but that you keep asking the same question!!

Allan made this clear::

 

Hello lastday,

Maybe because I am leading to a point that cannot be overlooked.

I believe the book of Eph. alone, does not allow splitting the two. The Reformed view of Eph. is that it is a handbook for the Kingdom of God, which I feel is the Church.

Eph 1 is key to this understanding. The hope of our inheritance God is to bless us with is not TWO states. (One Heaven and the other a earthly Kingdom.)

The mandate has been the same from the beginning. The inheritance is the same for all believers.

The inheritance is the same, or it is not. We are saved (Justification), being saved (Sanctification), and will be saved (glorification). Justification, sanctification, glorification, has the same hope of the same inheritance.

I do keep asking, because as we move through the book, there will be a big problem for those that hold this view.

 

Lastday

JArthur,

Your concluding statement below may produce some interesting discussion:
I wrote:

 

Hello Mel,

So YOU have 3 foundations based on 3 buildings....all of them different.
The Church ........... The new building..................The New Jerusalem
Christ ......................Apostles & Prophets ........... Apostles

If I had the time, I would just love to dig into this.
But this is just one of many reasons I don't debate this subject.

Here is the bottom line. Glorification comes in the inheritance of salvation. Will the Jewish nation be together with the church in heaven? If not, you have another salvation.

This we agree on. I do not see a difference. You point to Eph 2, but the gathering does not start there. Look in chapter 1.

10as a plan for(Y) the fullness of time,(Z) to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
​

And this union or gathering is called the church and also called the body. in which Christ is the Head of the gathering/church/body.

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
​

Chapter 2 only makes it clear as can be, that there is only one gathering/people/church/body.

The phrase ..”built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,”...is not saying the apostles and prophets are another building, but the same building.

Notice Christ is the START/Cornerstone, and the prophets was based on Christ. Then came the Apostles and they too was based on Christ. Its always been about Christ.

Now as the building keeps getting higher and higher, ..stone on stone....or as the church keeps growing, we TOO building up Christ as we follow the apostles and prophets...till one date the whole church/the gathering of the elect/the full body is complete, we go on top of the apostles and prophets making up the building, but all is based on CHRIST.

You point to Isa.11:11. This passage is but the gathering of his people from ALL NATIONS. Verse 10 points to Christ as the one that will gather. Also notice the word NATIONS

10In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
​

Now your verse is clear, for it list many nations where God will gather his people/elect.

11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
​

This is what Christ is doing RIGHT NOW in the gathering of the church/body.

There is so much to address here, It would take me to long. I'll stick with the main point you seem to try and make.

Hosea is the book of "the redeemed" played out as if it was a play. The characters represent the redemption plan of God. Hosea is a picture of Christ. Who he gathers are his people/elect.

What you bring up must be read in light of what has already been said in the book.

Look back in chapter 2...

16"And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' ...........
​

HUSBAND??? You mean, like the bride of Christ? YES...and who is the bride of Christ? The church??

And when does this (in that day vs16) happen?

18And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.
​

Now look at verse 23....

23and I will sow her for myself in the land.
And I will have mercy on No Mercy,
and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people';
and he shall say, 'You are my God.'"
​

Not my people....not the Jewish nation....but someone else.

Now you can go back to chapter 5 and 6 with new meaning.

This is all in your mind. Christ GATHERS HIS PEOPLE TOGETHER. We don't see him dividing, other then the non-believers from the believers. Believers are ONE.

 

Lastday

JArthur,

Thanks for going to such length to respond to my post.
We agree on the first half except for your making "three buildings out of one"
in Ephesians 2-3! The Church is "part of the New Building" since Pentecost and the "New Building is still growing unto the Holy Temple
in the Lord"; and it will be completed at His SC!! You wrongly change this "ONE Building in the Lord" to "3 different buildings"!!!

The 2nd half of your post assumes both the "last days and Day of the Lord" refer to the ongoing growth of the Church instead of seeing
the Church having been completed just before Christ appears with ALL the Saints on the Day
of the Lord! The New Building includes the Church as well as OT Saints; but the Church did not start until Pentecost...and that is the basis for Dispensational Truth!! The "gathering" began with the first Saint of the Old Dispensation and will be consummated as the "age to come" begins!!!

The "New Dispensation", for Ephraim and Judah, will not begin until the "Day of the Lord for the Jews...the Day of God's and the Lamb's Wrath" upon all those who seek the total destruction of the Jews! Recognition that the "last days for the redemption of Ephraim and Judah" will begin with the near total destruction of the enemies of the Nation of Israel when God "puts hooks into their jaws to invade her land for the spOIL" that is soon to be discovered!! You say the following is all "in my mind"; or maybe what is in the mind of the Almighty refers to God's promise of "remarriage" to His former people!!!
You Write:

The recognition by the Jews that their Nation is "the apple of God's eye" will begin when God destroys the nations that invade Israel for OIL! That too will cause Believers to "know the end is near"...replacing the common implication that "knowing the day or the hour" was meant for us to consider...instead of end-timers!! That knowledge is intended for those who will alone be able to begin the count of 1260 days for the "time, time and half a time"; and that must complete the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th "7" just 3 or 4 days prior to the "Day and Hour" to which Christ refers...for His appearance with all the Saints occurs while the Jews "mourn and continue begging to escape all these things about to occur on that DAY"!!! Luke 21:28-36.
Mel

 

Friends,
My following quote is better understand with the addition of words in parentheses:

Mel

 

I don't agree there are 3 buildings, I merely stated my understanding of what you said, and said I didn't have the time to go into that. When allegories are given in the Bible, many limit the teaching on that subject and try to use other allegories in contrast to the subject.

One good example of this is when some claim Christ is HEAD of the church, but not LORD of the church. Such teaching is silly. The allegory of the Body of believers placing Christ as the Head, is a way of saying the same thing as he is Lord.

The gathering of Gods people did not begin in the NT, but also was in the OT. That is the point of Eph 2. Notice once again that Paul called those being gathered in Eph 1, the church (vs 22). Without changing subject, Paul tells how all of us, both from the OT and now in the NT are pulled from the dark kingdom, into the kingdom of light.

This division (dark Kingdom vs Light Kingdom) is the only way you will find divisions in the NT. Believers, the children of light, the church, the saints on one hand,.......... and the dark kingdom, non-believers on the other hand. The LIGHT kingdom is ONE.

Read Eph 4....There is one body, and one Spirit, One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How could Paul be more clear?

Not so. Let me be very clear. You can have 3, 4, or 10 allegories teaching a truth, but because Scripture uses different subject matters do not think Christ is building 3, 4 or 10 buildings. THERE IS ONE KINGDOM.

Your statement on oil is just another reason I no long hold to Dispensational teachings. That is not found in the Bible.

James

 

James,

Except for your refusal to link the discovery of oil in Israel during the "last days" to fulfill
God's promises, I actually agree with everything you write in your last post...even in the fact that the "New Building" is One Body made up of OT and NT Saints. I have said this
from the start of our discussions. It is you alone who states that I see them as three
separate bodies. The Church is part of the "One Building" and in that we actually agree!

But you refuse to see a future LITERAL fulfillment of a reunion and restoration of the two houses of "Ephraim and Judah" as "One Nation" when Christ comes to redeem His former People. You have not responded satisfactorily to the evidence that only then will "all mankind know the Lord, from the least to the greatest". So, perhaps like Allan, I think this thread might be terminated...unless you can respond to the evidence for the literal reunion of Israel and Judah in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant.
Mel