disregarding the role of the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. nodak

    nodak
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    To be brief, some folks I know have discovered their denomination (not Baptist) are holding seminars to teach "worship leaders" how to use lighting, sound, lasers, room temp, fog machines, etc to "create worship experiences". Some of their preachers are complaining that these "worship leaders" are using all those to lift people into emotional frenzies, then land them gently but exhausted emotionally and mentally to the point the preaching can't seem to reach anyone.

    Your take on this practice?
     
  2. preachinjesus

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    Why do we think that planning our services and making them appeal to a certain aesthetic automatically negates the Holy Spirit?

    Is the Holy Spirit only able to lead and provoke in traditional services? Or in acapella services? Or at the Eucharistic table? etc etc etc

    Full disclosure: the church where I serve uses progressive worship methodology with several rotating worship teams. We don't instruct or ask our worship leaders to get people frenzied but we do encourage, at time, hand raising and singing loudly. We use lighting, sound, fog machines and have a functional high capacity heating and cooling system for our facility.
     
  3. nodak

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    I think what they are asking me is what IS the purpose of the service:

    option 1: have a worship experience

    option 2: proclaim the gospel

    I would say obviously you can do option 2 well and it will produce option 1.

    But doing option 1, even well, does not produce option 2 necessarily.

    Plus these folks are feeling very manipulated. Do you think that is valid?
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    I have been to worship services where it was very manipulative. In fact anyone who did not sing, shout, stand up, or act as the leaders asked them too were pointed out and condemned.

    What I would be careful of is trying to judge the hearts of the people who are doing some of these "progressive" methods. What may be a distraction for some people will not be for others. It is all very subjective.
     
  5. blessedwife318

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    That is a really good point. Although I would add that the preaching and teaching of the Word of God is Worship. It is unfortunate in that we have allowed worship to become synonymous with singing at the exclusion of all other forms of Worship.
    I am done with churches that manipulate me with theatrics. I think the Gospel is powerful enough to draw people. Churches are running into the law of diminishing returns. If you draw people with theatrics you have to keep them with theatrics and you keep having to one up yourself, or people will soon get bored.
     
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  6. JonC

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    I have noticed this as well (we have a full time sound guy, not a member but hired as a professional for the task). It does take away from the experience, but more to my point is I would choose neither 1 or 2 as an option. We do not gather to proclaim the gospel (as in evangelism) or to have a worship experience. We gather to function as Christ's body - equip the saints and glorify God. Too often our worship seems focused on us instead if God .
     
  7. nodak

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    What I told them was that I think there are two extremes to avoid. The first is seeking emotion or manipulating to produce it. The second is the mindset that "I refuse to feel anything" because it might be the Holy Spirit working on you.

    And that if they truly feel they are being manipulated, and it is pushed at the denominational level, to consider another denom.

    Is that wrong?
     
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  8. heisrisen

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    It's just another evidence of the times we're living in and what Jesus told us about. Seducing and antichrist spirits. It's not of God and they ARE just trying to bring people into an emotional frenzy. The word of God shouldn't have to be added to in that way. Self professing Christians are bringing the world into their churches to try and gain acceptance.
     
  9. plain_n_simple

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    It depends on the focus. If the purpose is to shout the name of Jesus and proclaim Him King of Kings, then get all the lights and lasers and harps and drums as you can muster! "He inhabits the praises of His people" is a definite assurance He is in that church. I want to be in an emotional heart pounding frenzy because I am excited about Jesus, He is coming ,honor Him.
     
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  10. HankD

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    I believe the primary emphasis of His work is on Him and not us.

    NIV John 3:8 The wind (pneuma-spirit) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

    In the early 1700's (circa 1732) during the Great Awakening multitudes were saved throughout the American colonies. There was a great social upheaval among the citizenry, churches increased their roles as much as 10 fold and more. Then around 1743 He left quickly. Later other "great awakenings" occurred.

    We don't know when, where and for how long He will move among us. He apparently is totally unpredictable Perhaps it is even futile to pray for Him to show up in the venue of a "Great Awakening".

    In films and books in which I have seen and read Jonathan Edward's (1703-1758) sermons and writings I was astonished that he was but an 18 year old pastor when he began preaching his powerful sermons.

    Here is an example of one of his writings: 70 Resolutions.
    If you read this keep in mind that he was only 18 years old when he wrote this!

    http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/jonathan-edwards-resolutions/

    HankD
     
    #10 HankD, Feb 12, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
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  11. agedman

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    There is the worship of the jumping around and calling out done by the worldly. There is hardly a heathen culture that did not have that display to work themselves up into a frenzy of devotion to their god. It is seen at the foot of the mountain with the Israelis, and again at the top of the mountain with the Israelis.

    In each event, there is a stark contrast of the frenzy to that of the believer. The attitude toward the assembly that was supposed to be called out of the darkness by God brought judgment upon the unrighteousness in the first. The second had the supposed leadership devoid of righteousness leaping about while the righteous would use their own sayings against them, followed again by judgment.

    Worship brings judgment.

    It is seen as Paul and Silas were worshiping in the jail. Judgment fell upon the jailer.

    It is seen as Christ casting out the thieves proclaiming, "My Father's house is a house of prayer."

    Do those who use manipulation and frenzy really consider that Christ would actually be among them?

    John was "in worship on the Lord's day." What was the result? Did he flop around, bounce up and down, act as though he was senseless? Or did he prostrate himself before the very Christ as one dead?

    I have no tolerance for an assembly that has to "get in the spirit of worship" and have no testimony of the judgment of God falling upon the assembly.

    There should be a call to worship, and then worship. Worship that brings accountability to the individual believer.

    I see no accounts of the persecuted church worship being such a display of worldly frenzy as is seen in many of the modern churches of the "free world."

    The modern church worship is an embarrassment, and of absolutely little value. God is not impressed by such, and it could be that He actually would rather be given a more appropriate praise.
     
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  12. Revmitchell

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    My take is that we have lost sight of what true worship is. We have stopped praying together, we have lost our expectation of the power and presence of God. We abhor the idea that we must live holy lives and we are unwilling to do what it takes to seek the face of God. Therefore we have traded intimacy with God for a worship experience.

    Seeking the experience never brings one closer to God. Worshipful prayer and His word are the tools to do that. Submission and a desire to walk as Jesus walked are the attitudes we need to do that. These things take work and we are weak and lazy spiritually.

    Do not be afraid to use those things but understand them for what they are. They do not bring us closer to God any more than the golden calf did for Israel.
     
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  13. Iconoclast

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    This is the work of the flesh. God the Holy Spirit is grieved.
    This is a sign the nation is under the judgment of God.
    The only good thing is the flesh will wear out.
    Then these people will find a biblical church.
    The flesh wants entertainment.
    Moses went to get the Commandments, the people rose up to play.
    The Baal worshipers jumped atound,shouted ,and cut themselves in a display of the flesh....Elijah did not do like them.
    When you turn from God and the regulative principle,this is what you get.
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Feb 13, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
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  14. JonC

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    When Charles Spurgeon was accused of preaching sermons that were “Redolent of bad taste, vulgar, and theatrical” (the Ipswich Express) he commented in a letter to Editor of The Chelmsford Chronicle “I am perhaps vulgar, but it is not intentional, save that I must and will make the people listen.” (The Complete Works of C.H. Spurgeon, volume 67). Training and method is necessary, just as Spurgeon noted, to do what is needed to make the people listen.

    Do we relegate the exercise of preaching to state of reliance on the Holy Spirit without pastoral education, training, discipline, technique and method? I believe (and I know that many disagree) that the pastor/preacher should be educated in Scripture and should employ techniques to facilitate comprehension to his audience. Preachers and pastors need to understand how to write and deliver a sermon. And this is done in reliance on the Holy Spirit both in the delivering and receiving of the message.

    Likewise, “worship leaders” (if they are used in a local church) should be trained and disciplined. They should examine the songs presented for biblical correctness. And the music should be such as would facilitate genuine worship and communicate or be identifiable with the congregation.

    Reliance on the Holy Spirit is not an excuse for neglect. That said, I’ve seen both preacher and “worship leader” turn a service into a show. I’ve also seen services overly criticized. We need to be just as careful in our criticism of other churches for shedding our stylistic expectations as we are in our own churches in guarding doctrine and genuine worship.

    Personally, there are very few elements in contemporary worship that appeal to me. But I am not everyone.
     
  15. Jerome

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    Reformed Baptist Seminary dean says:

    “Raising the Roof” of God’s House: A Call to Turn Up the Volume of Congregational Praise
     
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  16. Jerome

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    He went on to say:
     
  17. JonC

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    I have wondered when worship became so focused on us and what we do in terms of corporate praise instead of on God and what He had done. It seems to me that our act of worship should be presenting ourselves as sacrifices based on who God is and what He's done through redemptive history in hope and light of that final salvation to come.

    Personally, I do not know how many more times I can stand in church and invoke God to take His place or be asked to "give God a hand (clapping)" after a song. The first seems almost pagan to me and the latter childish.



    Sent from my TARDIS
     
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  18. Revmitchell

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    I suppose people will do anything to excuse their replacement of the HG.
     
  19. agedman

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    In so many words that quotes states that as the world moves farther away for the standard of Godliness, the church must also move. The church may not be as wild as the world, and most often one's discomfort when not finding much difference should just be a matter of getting used to something and not considering it a violation of Scripture principles.

    Imagine the Ephesian church being told to worship like the world and worldly, because such worship would both be pleasing to God and will attract others to Christ.
     
  20. JonC

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    I don't think they realize it. Perhaps this comes along with the professionalization if the ministry.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     

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