Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Feb 4, 2015.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Some on BB recently have scoffed at the idea that for a man to come to salvation, to a saving knowledge of The Lord Jesus Christ.....God has to do a supernatural work inside the sinner using several means that he has ordained.

    As usual...scoffers take pot shots at anyone who offers on such a topic and never really back up their own ideas. We have sadly seen this recently.

    One poster makes fun of the unseen work of the Spirit in regeneration.

    The work of the Spirit called a fairy tale?

    One poster ridicules the idea that for a Christian to come to truth the Spirit must accompany his or her study to allow truth to enter in.

    One poster believes that for a person to welcome the doctrines of grace does not need God to open the truth to him.

    Do you think the natural man can welcome the things of God?

    Do you think sinners dead in sin have full ability to come to Jesus before the Spirit does anything?

    Do you think that understanding Divine truth is just the product of physical fleshly study?


    Here are a few verses that deal with this issue to start it off.
    If you comment offer scripture when possible.

    Jn3;

    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



    Mt11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,

    because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

    and hast revealed them unto babes.

    26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


    MT13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


    Mt16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

    1 Cor2:
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Feb 4, 2015
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  2. Getting it Right

    Getting it Right
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    Notice that the poster of the above uses words like mystical, mysterious, metaphysical, superstitious, yogic, strangely, mystically, fairy tales.......

    It ain't none of thet secu-lar nonsense, folks.

    I know that I know that I know ..... been there, done that. No one will ever remove from me the Joy of the Born Again experience, that blessed moment when Salvation by Grace through Faith became a Spiritual reality.

    :saint:
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Exactly:thumbs: Why would anyone deny the supernatural work of God in regeneration and conversion for that which is carnal and fleshly? It makes no sense:thumbs:
     
  4. OldRegular

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    I will post what I believe as I have done before.

    As far back as I can remember I have always believed in the God of the Bible, I have always believed in the reality of the man Jesus Christ, His death on the cross, and His resurrection. This was not something I was indoctrinated in; it was the result of being raised in the home/family that was mine.

    There came a time in my life when I was taught that Salvation was a supernatural act of God and that man could not come to God for salvation unless he was drawn by the Holy Spirit and responded to that "drawing". There came a time in my life when I began to understand, to some degree, the nature of sin and the presence of sin in my life!

    I also went through an extended period in my life where I thought little about God and the fact that I had no relationship with Him. How long that period lasted is irrelevant but thank God it ended. I had married a wonderful Christian woman and in time I began to see more clearly my need for God. I began once again to understand that my sin separated me from God and that separation could be eternal.

    By that time I had relocated to South Carolina amongst a lot of Southern Baptists who were primarily Arminian or "freewill" in their doctrine. I was visited more times than I can remember and told that all I had to do was simply to walk the aisle and accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. Frankly that just did not seem correct to me, perhaps because of what I had learned earlier in life. I could never be called an “freewiller” but I certainly was not a “hardshell”!

    As time passed, I suppose I can put it this way, the burden of my sin increased as did my fear of judgment. {I know many on this Forum make light of the fear of judgment in Salvation but!!!} I spent a lot of time on my knees particularly those Sundays when my wife and daughter had gone to Church. I prayed for faith, I prayed for forgiveness. About this time something happened in my life that made my prayers more intense: I begged for faith, I begged for forgiveness. Perhaps I expected God to knock me down like he did Saul on the road to Damascus. I don't know!

    I do know that there was a Sunday morning when I walked into the Church auditorium to meet my wife: A feeling of joy flooded me. I had spent much time in prayer that morning. Was my joy psychological or spiritual. I believed then and now it was Spiritual and so, when the invitation was given, I "walked the aisle". I came to believe in time that I was exercising, in conversion, the Faith that God had given me in the "new birth" or regeneration. Strangely enough the sermon preached that morning was on judgment by a supply preacher.

    I determined to learn Scripture and I did. Within a year or so I was teaching SS. I was not only learning Scripture I was learning about myself; I was learning about sin and God's hatred of sin. I had experienced the fear of judgment, I was learning about the nature of sin, I was learning about the nature of God, I was looking at many of the people with whom I worked. In time I began to wonder how these people could be so cavalier about God.

    Somewhere about this time in my life I recalled a passage of Scripture that my Dad had often quote to me. {When our family got together we normally talked about God and the Bible or politics; sometimes sports.} That passage: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.{Acts 13:48}

    As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. I began to look at Scripture, Salvation, and the Grace of God from a different viewpoint. As I learned about God I came to understand that God was really God, He was and is Sovereign over all His creation. I began to understand a doctrine that I had once abhorred, the Doctrine of Election. Rather than a hateful doctrine it became a beloved doctrine that magnified the Love and Grace of God. I had finally come to understand that the sin of Adam and Eve was not "simply eating the forbidden fruit" but was rebellion against God and the dreadful penalty for that rebellion was separation of the race from God.

    Slowly over a period of months, years, I came to believe that Salvation is all by the Grace of God. I began to understand that the "new birth", an event that evangelicals talk so much about was really an act of God alone absent any act on my part; whereas at one time I believed it was contingent on my accepting what God offered.

    I came to see the Bible as the story of God’s Grace in His redemptive purpose for His people. I see God seeking out the first couple after their rebellion, taking the initiative in providing provisional atonement for Adam and Eve, the covering of skins. I see that God keeps a faithful remnant before He finds it necessary to destroy mankind. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. {Genesis 6:8} I see God calling Abram out of idolatry with the promise of God: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. {Genesis 12:3}

    I could write more but summing up I learned, with the help and Grace of God, that God is indeed Sovereign in the Salvation of His people, His Elect. I come to understand that the gospel of Christ: … is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; {Romans 1:16} I came to understand and believe that the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace best explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Salvation is indeed a supernatural act of God, His Gift to those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
     
    #4 OldRegular, Feb 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2015
  5. Iconoclast

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    Exactly O.R.
    It is all of God.It is supernatural
     
  6. blessedwife318

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    Thank you for that wonderful Testimony OldRegular

    :godisgood:
     
  7. robustheologian

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    I must highlight Iconoclast's use of the more suitable word "illumination" in the title. :thumbs:

    Thanks for hearing me out on that one.
     
  8. convicted1

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    Wonderful thread and posts, Brothers and Cistern...:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:
     
  9. kyredneck

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    Compare with Abracadabra regeneration: follow the formula, repeat the incantation, and, SHAZAAM! PRESTO CHANGO! BORN AGAIN! IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED! ANYBODY CAN DO IT!

    That about sums up what most hold to today.

    ...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8 YLT

    Lol, "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow", I've always thought of it as being exactly that, mystical and mysterious.
     
  10. convicted1

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    I told DHK in another thread....

    You had zero to do with your natural birth...

    You had zero to do with your spiritual birth...


    All I got was "chirp, chirp, chirp....."


    By his model, when the mother is having birthing pangs, the baby is in the womb taking his feet and pushing and using his fingers to grab the birthing canal walls, assisting in the birth....


    When the church travails, she brings forth her children...


    "Before she is pained she hath brought forth, Before a pang cometh to her, She hath delivered a male. Who hath heard anything like this? Who hath seen anything like these? Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? For she hath been pained, Zion also hath borne her sons. `Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, `Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, And be glad in her, all ye loving her, Rejoice ye with her for joy, All ye are mourning for her, So that ye suck, and have been satisfied, From the breast of her consolations, So that ye wring out, and have delighted yourselves From the abundance of her honour."(Isa. 66:7-11 YLT)
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    I have come to cherish 2 Corinthians 4:6 as a definitive verse for the internal work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

    1. It is purposely and directly associated with the effectual call of light out of darkness in Genesis 1:2-3 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness." This is indisputably the effectual call of God.

    2. It is then directly applied to the INWARD darkened STATE of the heart "hath shined IN our hearts" thus dispelling the DARKENED condition of that heart effectually. This is not an external work of God but the INTERNAL work of God directly compared to the effectual work of God in Genesis 1:2-3. When God called light into existence it dispelled, replaced, removed the darkened state of the earth.

    3. This effectual call whereby the darkened state of the heart is CHANGED to a STATE OF LIGHT (thus transformed or called out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light) is defined as an effectual REVELATION of the "knowledge of the glory of God". This "knowledge" is directly created or called into existence within the heart by God just as God called light into existence in Genesis 1;2-3 by a creative act. This is a CREATIVE REVELATORY act of God that transforms the heart from a state of darkness to a state of light.

    4. This heart transformational "knowledge" is then explicitly defined to be "the glory of God." It is divine revelation of the glory of God that transforms the heart from a state of darkness (dominion of sin) into the state of light (righteousness/holiness). Sin is coming short of the glory of God, therefore the glory of God is God's RIGHTEOUSNESS and HOLINESS. Paul says our new man is CREATED in "righteousness and true holiness" after the "image of God" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). This is an internal effectual creative act of God that transforms the sinful state of the unregenerate heart into the righteous and holy state - thus producing a NEW heart.

    5. This "light of knowledge" is further defined as "IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST." When you look into someone's face you can SEE them for who they are. Paul is saying the heart is transformed by a creative act of God that effectually changes the heart from a state of Darkness or IGNORANCE of Christ or a state which is BLIND and cannot SEE who Christ really is, unto a state of LIGHT that REVEALS Christ or a heart that is looking into "THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST as Christ is declared in the gospel (vv. 2-5,7). Thus God creates a SEEING heart that knows Jesus Christ - that is the creation of saving faith!

    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    In contrast to the transformed heart that sees Jesus Christ is the unregenerated heart which is in darkness, unrighteousness and blind and alienated from the life of God:

    Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Feb 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2015
  12. Iconoclast

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    Yes Brother, Illumination is an excellent word for this discussion . There are many terms that figure in.

    Look at one description here in EPH1;

    15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

    Paul says he is praying to God,That God might grant them the spirit of wisdom and revelation and then describes what result he wants for them;

    THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED

    How does that take place? Surely the person must pray and study the scripture . I believe all the study in the world does not avail unless the Spirit opens the scriptures to the new heart given at regeneration.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    God gets all the credit ....causing us to walk in His statues:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  13. MNJacob

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    Perhaps they haven't experienced it.
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    Great post B,

    Eph 4 was my next go to section of scripture. Reinforcing it with 2 cor 4 demonstates the supernatural work of God allowing it all to come to pass.

    There is no room for man centered theology here!:thumbs:
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Icon,

    I love your opening sentence. I have for years stated on this BB that Salvation is a supernatural act of God. I believed that even before I came to understand and accept the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace.

    I have also stated that God saves people one at a time. Because all people are different there is no such thing as cookie cutter Salvation. God will bring His Elect to Salvation in His own way and His own time.

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    If you suspect that is the case, how would you seek to minister to such a person?

    Would you be subtle? or more direct depending on your relationship with that person?
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    I think you, B, and Kyred are directly on the pulse of this issue:thumbs: Great quote and good food for thought:wavey::applause:
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Con 1 good verse.It is obvious that God is moving worldwide and non stop. Converting sinner after sinner.
    His work is internal......unseen but effectual.
     
  19. DHK

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    Using "several means"? So salvation is by works? How many means? How many things are required for salvation?
    I have given my testimony plenty of times. I also have very simply explained the plan of salvation many times. So you can't accuse me of "never backing up my own ideas." But I may be able to justly you accuse you of what you just did either to me or to others. We'll see.

    Have you given you testimony? When, where, and how were you regenerated/saved?
    And here is the quote:

    "The new birth (as described by some here) is a mystical, mysterious, metaphysical (even superstitious) experience whereupon a man goes into his yogic position and while doing nothing, having read nothing, having ever heard anything about Christ; suddenly and mysteriously the Holy Spirit comes strangely and mystically upon him and transforms him from within giving him a new heart."
    It is a tongue-in-cheek description of the total inability of the Calvinist to give his testimony of salvation. He can't. This has been demonstrated over and over again in both the Other Christian Den. Forum, and the Cal/Arm. Forum, when SBM was repeatedly asked to give his testimony. He won't/can't do it.
    Most Calvinists are in the same boat.
    It boils down to this mysterious mystical event that they can't describe. Even OR has a hard time describing "when he was saved." Notice how he avoids when "he believed in Christ." Even though that is the command we are given (as in Acts 16:31), it is avoided at all costs lest one think he is attributing salvation to "works." That was SBM's problem.
    The Calvinists' paradigm is that regeneration must precede faith which then enables salvation. But the Bible doesn't teach that. It is an illogical and false premise to start with and therefore all the confusion, and the reluctance to give any clear-cut testimony.
    Of all of you here, OR is the only one that attempted to give his or her testimony. I wonder why it so difficult to testify of Christ for a Calvinist. When and where were you born again? How did it come about? The Apostle Paul used his testimony quite effectively as he witnessed to others. On the road to Damascus there was a point in time when he believed that Christ was Lord. Admitting that he was Lord, God did a work of grace in his heart and he immediately submitted to him from that point onward. There was no process there. There was nothing mystical and mysterious and undefinable.
    It might as well be the way some of you describe it. You don't use scripture and when you do it is used out of context. You can't give your own testimony.
    Every Christian has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. In fact all Christians have "the fullness of the Godhead bodily." What more do we need?
    Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    Are you suggesting that some are inspired of God?
    Of course not. The DoG, as we understand it (Calvinism) is in error, false teaching. God is not going to reveal the false teaching of Calvin to one who already knows the truth. Think of it that way.
    To think of it another way, even if you accept it as truth, accept it as a "system of theology," man's system, not inspired of God. It is a matter of soul liberty. It is not a matter of "God showing me."
    Yes, I think you do not understand that verse.
    I have explained it here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2188862&postcount=135
    The Holy Spirit works through His Word bringing sinners to Christ.
    The work of the Holy Spirit is described here:

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    (Joh 16:7-11)
    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    --It is the result of long hours of study. Study what it means to be a "workman."
    --This is one of the verses that many of you misunderstand. It is where you derive your mysticism from. What does it mean. Let me quote Clarke:
    For these verses see my explanation here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2188862&postcount=135
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    everyone who commented in this thread seemed like they were on the same page you ever notice the DHK how none of the comments seem similar to yours.
    does anyone have a theory on why DHK does not agree with everyone else who posted?
    I haven't theory on this that I will put out later on when I answer in full
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2015
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