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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 13, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]
    Notice the eternal-life vs hell - contrast also in the GOSPEL of Romans 2 - but not "As if" Romans 2 was written "by me".

    [/FONT]     [FONT=&quot]4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kindness of God leads you to repentance[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5 But because of your stubbornness and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]unrepentant heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who     [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]will render to each person according to his deeds[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    7 to those who by [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]perseverance in doing good seek[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for glory and honor and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]immortality, eternal life[/FONT][FONT=&quot];
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/FONT]    [FONT=&quot], wrath and indignation[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
    9 There will be [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]tribulation and distress[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for every soul of man who [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does evil[/FONT][FONT=&quot], of the Jew first [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and also of the Greek,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    10 but [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]glory and honor[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]also to the Greek[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]11 For there is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no partiality with God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]doers of the Law will be justified[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]work of the Law written in their hearts[/FONT][FONT=&quot], their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16 on the day [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]when, according to my gospel[/FONT][FONT=&quot], God will [/FONT][FONT=&quot]judge[/FONT]    [FONT=&quot] the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    Notice as well that Paul does not say to the saints in Corinth - "Do not worry - you can take your sin to heaven for you are once-saved-always-saved".

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 1Cor 6
    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary,     [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    9 Or do you not know that the [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of God? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not be deceived[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers,     [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]will inherit the kingdom of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Such were some of you;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.[/FONT]
     
    #21 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2013
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Well done Mark...:applause:
     
    #22 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 15, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 7 says that - are you saying that Matt 7 is wrong now?

    Then what about Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" -- is that wrong as well?

    And of course Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" - also wrong?

    --------------- Here is a question for you

    I do not claim to be Baptist -- but you might. So do you agree with your own Baptist Confession of Faith as edited by Spurgeon?

    Baptist Confession of Faith as revised by C.H.Spurgeon

    [FONT=&quot]19.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Law of God [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN Commandments and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot], justified people as well[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it. [/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    All you have said is mere semantics up to this point. Here you agree with the bottom line that I have stated. You do believe that works are NECESSARY for ultimate justification before God as you repeatedly demand that Romans 2:6-13 includes both sinners and saints and the final basis is justification by works.


    Again pure semantics. The SDA makes the "fruits" part of the necessary cause of salvation in the day of Judgement. You deny that the life and death of Christ fully and forever satisfy the law's demands in behalf of the "ungodly" but demand that Spirit produced "works" are essential in the day of judgment for ultimate justification.

    I have talked to many SDA pastors and read too much SDA literature, their theologions over the past 40 years to think any different.

    For example are you familiar with Samuele Bacchiocchi and his book "Immortality Or Resurrection"? Do you agree with him in his explanation of salvation?
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Then it boils down to your interpretation and application of this scripture. So answer this question then, it is a yes or no, then you may elaborate and we will know your beliefs on this subject of justification. If a born of God person sins one of these sins and dies in the act thereof, is that person saved?
     
    #25 steaver, Jun 15, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" and argues against your idea that fruits do not demonstrate the saved or lost condition of the person.

    The SDA statement on this is that looking at the tree - does not CHANGE the tree. The tree is already saved or lost - already good or bad. The fruit just reveals the fact - it does not change it.

    As is often the case your difference is based on your lack of understanding of the position of the person that does not share your view.

    More accuracy - less smoke please.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is NO SDA statement that with each sin - a saved person is lost. "I write these things to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" !John 2:1

    I think we both know that - so not sure why you are going there.

    But there IS the Matt 18 teaching on "Forgiveness revoked".

    And there IS the Romans 11 statement on "FEAR" for "you stand only by your faith - if HE did not spare them neither will he spare you".

    OSAS is simply false doctrine according to the Bible. You can't blame me because "I notice".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2013
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I believe exactly as stated in this confession! Exactly! However, this confession makes it clear that neither justification or sanctification is obtained by keeping the law nor can are they subject to be ultimately "condemned by it." On the other hand, you do believe they are ultimately subjected to it as a rule of final judgement and can be condemned by it as that is exactly how you interpret Romans 2:6-13.

    Moreover, the absolute proof you are perverting this confession is that you reject what they state concerning salvation which makes it crystal clear that they do not believe any saint will be judged by the law on judgement day.

    So what you are attempting to do is cherry pick some of their statements and then conclude they were inconsistent with their own confession of faith. That is utter nonsense and shows you neither understand what they believed or either law or grace.

    Shall we go to their articles on salvation and see if you really agree with them in regard to thier view of the law and salvation?


    Of Justification​

    1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.

    (Rom. 3:24, 8:30; Rom. 4:5-8; Eph. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:30, 31; Rom. 5:17-19; Phil. 3:8, 9; Eph. 2:8-10; John 1:12; Rom. 5:17)

    2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

    (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26)

    3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.

    (Heb. 10:14; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19; Isa. 53:5, 6; Rom. 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:26; Eph. 1:6, 7, 2:7)

    4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.

    (Gal. 3:8; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 Tim. 2:6; Rom. 4:25; Col. 1:21, 22; Tit. 3:4-7)

    5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

    (Matt. 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9; John 10:28; Ps. 89:31-33; Ps. 32:5; Ps. 51; Matt. 26:75)

    6. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.

    (Gal. 3:9; Rom. 4:22-24)
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Matt 7 , Christ makes it clear that those who will not be saved are those He "never knew" , they were never saved to begin with.

    Romans 3:31 , declares faith in Christ establishes the purpose of the Law, which was to bring us to faith in Christ, for what the Law could not do (justify) Christ did for us on the cross.

    Rev , says nothing about justification....
     
    #29 steaver, Jun 15, 2013
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    ]

    You are jerking this text out of its context.

    The PERSONS under consideration are those who believe they will pass judgement and obtain eternal life by their works - vv. 1-5; 17-25

    The PRINCIPLES for JUST rewards and condemnation of works are stated in Romans 2:6-15. JUST principles must include what is the standard for rewarding "good" works and consquences as much as "bad" works and consequences or it is not JUST. However, to presume that either category of persons described in Romans 1:18-2:5 or in Romans 2:17-25 actually have their works regarded as "good" and thus obtain the consequences for "good" is pure PRESUMPTION on your part.



    Again, you are perverting the text and context. Paul is establishing the standard by the works of both Jews and gentiles will be judged. The Jew will be judged by the Law of Moses whereas the Gentiles will be judged by the law of conscience. The law of conscience is said to do the "work" of the Mosaic law in that it provides a standard of good and evil. However, neither law will be based upon either the Jew's or the Gentile's interpretation of that standard but upon the "gospel" interpretation of that standard (v. 16) which is the standard revealed in the life of Jesus Christ - sinless perfection.

    There is not one mention of "grace" or "salvation" or "saint" or "mercy" or anything else about the saved in this passage because it is about LOST pious Gentiles or Religious Jews and all about WORKS not grace.
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Of course I believe that good works are the "fruit" of regeneration and manifestation of a child of God. However, Jesus does not say "by their fruits I shall know them" but "YOU" shall know them.

    It is one thing to say "good" works are fruits and quite another thing to say that "fruits" are the ultimate essential that determines hell or eternal life on the day of judgement! That is your interpretation of Rom. 2:6-15.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This Baptist Confession denies that true justified Christians will ever lose salvation. It denies that true justified Christians are justified by infusion of Christ's righteousness, so that ultimately their works justify them in the day of judgement or that their works are even a consideration for eternal salvation or justification in the day of judgment. But are simply the basis for gain or loss of eternal rewards.

    So stop pretending that this Baptist confession agrees with the SDA view of the law. Can you agree with them about security of the elect:

    This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2013
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Are you familiar with the SDA theologion Samuele Bacchiocchi and his book "Immortality Or Resurrection"? Do you agree with him in his explanation of salvation? An SDA Pastor loaned me that book and then we debated each other chapter by chapter of that book.
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I take the same position on the Law of God. I believe that even man made distinctions of "civil" versus "ceremonial" laws all are based upon eternal moral principles. I believe all moral principles in Scripture are revelations of the righteous heart of God and therefore are eternal and immutable. I believe that these eternal moral principles (rather than the administrative visible forms) are applicable to saints in all ages as a rule for living. I believe the human conscience has the principle of treat others as you want to be treated written upon it by God from birth. I believe "good works" are ONE part of the fruits of regeneration. I believe our works will be judged according to those eternal principles.

    However, where this Baptist Confession of faith differs from SDA and its view of the law is a vital distinction. We believe we are "dead" to the law as far as any final condemnation/judgement and that the law is used only in the day of judgement to determine the nature of our rewards not our destination. That works have no part to do with our eternal justification.
     
    #34 The Biblicist, Jun 15, 2013
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  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You are contradicting your points here.

    First you basically say "no" to my question that a saved person can lose their salvation through a sin, and rightly so, because we have an Advocate with the Father. Quoting 1John2.

    Then you oppose 1John2 by citing other scriptures and declaring salvation can be lost through sin.

    "How long halt ye between two opinions? "
     
    #35 steaver, Jun 15, 2013
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Why did Paul tell the Roman believers here "you stand only by your faith"? Where is the Law? Where are the works?

    Do you stand only by faith BobRyan?
     
    #36 steaver, Jun 15, 2013
  17. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Totally false, and you know it.

    BTW, as long as you were disparaging and falsifying the beliefs of the SDAs, CoC, and Methodists, why didn't you include the General Baptists and Free Will Baptists in your list?
     
    #37 Thomas Helwys, Jun 16, 2013
  18. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Absolutely untrue. It involves the God given ability to choose, something that God never takes away, except in the mind of determinists.
     
    #38 Thomas Helwys, Jun 16, 2013
  19. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    And unknown prior to Calvin, who invented it.
     
    #39 Thomas Helwys, Jun 16, 2013
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    OK, please explain your pov then. How would this present itself in the real world? Does the saved person decide one day, 'hey, I don't feel like believing in Jesus anymore, I think I will stop now, all this grace and mercy stuff, who needs it, I would rather just not believe anymore and go to hell'. ???

    OR, does it involve works and sins? That is really the issue isn't it? Nobody decides one day they will stop believing and go to hell. The OSAS opponents will always point to sins and works as proof one has lost their salvation, thus, it must be sins and works which they believe are saving them in the first place.
     
    #40 steaver, Jun 16, 2013
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