Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 8, 2011.
Double Election, God directly causes those to to Heaven/Hell by divine decree?
Most do believe in double election, but do not believe that God directly causes their unbelief and sin. You have to define terms. Many hyper-cals subscribe to equal ultimacy (positive decrees for both the elect and the non-elect), while more moderate folks see it as a positive election for the elect and a negative reprobation for everyone else. In other words, active intervention in election, and a passive 'passing over' for the non-elect (God does not cause the unbelief and sin of the non-elect; it is already present. God simply does not intervene in negative decreed reprobation).
I believe in the second position concerning those who reject Christ due to sin/unbelief...
Why do many Arminians here hold and post that unless one holds to active double reprobabtion its "not consistant?" Either God directly causes both, or directly causes neither ssalvation/loss?
I like was Siberian said. I'm definitely on the latter side. The Hyper version puts everyone in a "neutral" category with God choosing some for heaven and some for hell. This of course isn't even close to biblical. The biblical way is that men are sinners and on their way to hell. They are not in any "innocent" nor "natural" category but in a guilty category. God chooses through the good pleasure of his loving and merciful will to save some.
Of course the reason many tend toward the first one is due to the logical consistency. Someone had to decide to make all mankind born Total Depraved and thus unable to willingly respond to His appeal of reconciliation. He doesn't just "passover" passively, He had to decree what the condition of mankind would be as a result of the fall.
And if He didnt, heaven would have none. Praise Christ & thank you Lord!
A-men for Gods' wonderful grace!
mankind is in the position because of the fall. Not neutral.
But who decided that would be their position as a result of the fall, if not God?
God did. He is holy and all sin must be punished. That's why Jesus Christ paid for our sins on the cross. Adam sinned and we all come from Adam. (rom 5) This is all different from choosing for salvation. In other words, take election totally out of the picture for a moment. What do you have? you have people that are sinners and will go to hell for their sins. Now, add election back in and you have God choosing for salvation. Damnation is the default ending for people.
I don't. If you look closely, I don't believe that Calvin did either. I open to hear arguments that say otherwise...maybe in another thread. I believe that when Calvin used the term predestination with the reprobate, he was using it as an act of justice...in other words, it's an in time argument. It was decreed, eternally, allowed, positively allowed, but the justice, or the predestination of that justice begins from the fall. All who were not elect were predestined this way as an act of justice. Try to get out of the supra-infra mindset which these types of discussions usually come.
BTW, I believe it's a mistake to use the terms predestination and preordain as synonymous. The Westminster is accurate in this way.
The double predestination thing seems to be a new trend, in my mind, from misunderstanding the meaning of some of the past reformed theologians. It also seems to come from the idea that God must be the positive cause of something to be sovereign over it. I believe that God's sovereignty over all things is grounded in His providence.
I will ask you this Allinall because Im a fairly new Christian....What is meant by "supra-infra mindset" ? Are you speaking of a fatalist or that God's opnipitance requires that his hand is in everything. Frankly both the Westminster Confessions & the 1689 Confessions of Faith distance God from any involvement with sin, so how can somebody claim either direct or indirect involvement? Here is where I get seriously confused.
Dave, according to your profile, you are not Baptist. Before we get to far into this thread, just a reminder that non-Baptists may not post in this category or in this thread.
You are welcome to post in the Other Christian Denominations category, and in any of the Fellowship forums.
Hi Dave, Have you considered Book 3, Chapter 21 of Calvin's Institutes? It seems very clear to me that Calvin believed strongly in double predestination (in the equal ultimacy sense).
Why, that is the infralapsarian/supralasarian mindset, of course.
Here's a helpful (IMO) link.
What I have gleaned from predestination, that if God predestines some to be His "elect", He has predestined their destiny, for lack of better words. In this process, He "passes over" those who aren't the "elect", therefore, He has predestined their final destination. So to believe in predestination in the way my DoG brethern do, has God predestinating both the "elect" and "non-elect" to their eternal place of dwelling. SO, IOW, to believe in predestination, you'd have to believe in double predestination.....or that's what I have gleaned from them.
i am I AM's!!
I agree with this. The term "predestine" in the Bible always refers to God's elect whenever it speaks of people.
But God ORDAINS all things.
I do not believe in double predestination simply because "predestination" is a salvific term when it refers to people in Scripture just like the term "regenerate" or "redeem".
It is true, though, speaking strictly practically, that God does predestine everything- the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the non-elect and everything else- but in this sense: the word simply means- to determine beforehand or to preordain.
If we believe that God FOREORDAINED all that ever comes to pass, as the Westminster clearly states, then we must believe that he "predestines" all that comes to pass since that is the raw definition of the term.
But that speaks only of the raw definition of the term.
The best theological understanding of the term "predestinate", I think, when it refers to people is that it refers to God's plans for his elect- not to the non-elect.
What do YOU believe about predestination?
Here is sounds like you don't believe in it at all, as if the term is not even in the Bible.
Oh come on Siberian, your giving me a head ache with this crud.....I was hoping for one of our educated clergy to distill it down to english for me:smilewinkgrin: