Do preterists believe in literal second coming of Christ?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Jul 16, 2003.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    I have been trying to understand what Preterists believe. (I am a futurist by the way)

    Everytime I think I have a grasp of it someone gives a different definition.

    From what I have read, Preterists believe the Olivet Discourse and all Old Testament Prophecies
    were fulfilled between the birth of the New Testament Church and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    But I have read many Preterists say they look to a literal second coming of Christ(most are either Post-Mil or Amil) but they still believe in a literal Second Coming of Christ - they just place it after the Millenium.

    But I see people on this board and others say that Preterists don't believe in a literal future second coming of Christ?

    So whats do they believe?

    IFBReformer
     
  2. BrianT

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    There are two basic preterist camps: full preterist which believe ALL was fulfilled by 70 A.D., and partial preterists which see significance in the events surrounding 70 A.D., and that some of the prophecies were referring to that time, but also still believe in a future return of Christ and resurrection of saints, etc.
     
  3. IfbReformer

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    BrianT,

    I have a book at home which compares the 4 main millenial views(Disp Premil, His Premil, Post mil and Amil) and in that book they all agree that they are looking for the future second coming of Christ, the resurection and judgement.

    The Amil person definitely considers themselves a Preterist.

    If a some were as you say - a full Preterist, do they not believe in the resurection and judgment?

    Could you give me some examples of people who are full Preterists that I can lookup?

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     
  4. BrianT

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    I think I have that same book. None of the contributors are full preterists, although they may hit on some partial preterist issues.

    Most amil people are partial preterist to some extent. It's hard to compare amil with full preterism.

    They believe the resurrection was spiritual (the rising of the church, spiritual resurrection of individual believers, etc.) and that the judgement was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. It is unclear what they think the future holds, for it is basically irrelevant to full preterism.

    This site has a TON of stuff on full preterism and partial preterism. It is "the" preterism site on the net:
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    LOTS of good stuff there. Don't agree with any part of preterism and have learned much about it from the BB.

    I attended an ifb college/seminary and basically "blew off" anything other than dispensational pre-trib/pre-mil. There are lots of Baptists who hold other views.

    Simple answer to question on "literal" coming is "No".
     
  6. IfbReformer

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    I think I have that same book. None of the contributors are full preterists, although they may hit on some partial preterist issues.

    Most amil people are partial preterist to some extent. It's hard to compare amil with full preterism.

    They believe the resurrection was spiritual (the rising of the church, spiritual resurrection of individual believers, etc.) and that the judgement was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. It is unclear what they think the future holds, for it is basically irrelevant to full preterism.

    This site has a TON of stuff on full preterism and partial preterism. It is "the" preterism site on the net:
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/
    </font>[/QUOTE]BrianT,

    Thanks for the info and I will definitely check out that site.

    So it seems to me that a full preterist is none of the above -Premil, Postmil or Amil.

    Premils are futurists.

    Postmils and Amils are partial preterists then.

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     
  7. Ron Grove

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    "Thanks for the info and I will definitely check out that site."

    Yes, it contains a lot, but you would also want to take a look at the best partial preterist positions as well. These are mostly found in postmillenialist circles right now.

    I recommend "Before Jerusalem Fell" and a few other good books by Kenneth Gentry as well. His video "The Beast of Revelation" I think it's called is good, too. He may be the postmill contributor in your current book if it's the one I'm thinking of:

    http://www.kennethgentry.com/

    I would recommend End Times Fiction by Gary DeMar. His website is at:

    http://www.americanvision.org/

    From American Vision's site or www.ligonier.org you could get Keith Mathison's book "Postmillenialsim: An Eschatology of Hope" which is another good partial preterist, postmill work.

    "So it seems to me that a full preterist is none of the above -Premil, Postmil or Amil."

    Correct. They're in a world all their own. Because of this you run into a lot of doctrines like annihilation instead of an eternal hell, etc. Several of the partial preterists have written pretty scathing articles and books on them. I think one reformed church declared it official heresy, etc.

    "Premils are futurists."

    Yes.

    "Postmils and Amils are partial preterists then."

    Not necessarily. It's a LOT more complex than this. How you read Revelation 4-19 is not dictated by either an amil or a postmil position. But both are able to accomodate partial preterism very easily. There is considerable futurism in these traditions. I would say futurism is actually the norm, but partial preterism has begun to gain momentum. I HIGHLY recommend the book "Revelation: Four Views" by Steve Gregg. It is a parallel commentary with the four major positions on Rev 4-19 (idealist, historicist, partial preterist, futurist) and the three views in parallel on Rev 20 (premill variants, amil and postmil). It really helped me understand and is very objective about the strengths and weaknesses of each position (with regard to Revelation at least...)

    In Christ,
    Ron
     
  8. Rev. Joshua

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    Same thing here in reverse. Dispensationalism received about thirty seconds at the baptist seminary I attended - so I've learned a good bit about it here.

    Joshua
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    From what I have read, Preterists believe the Olivet Discourse and all Old Testament Prophecies were fulfilled between the birth of the New Testament Church and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    Correct. The fall of Jerusalem was the end of the Old Covenant.

    But I see people on this board and others say that Preterists don't believe in a literal future second coming of Christ?

    They believe in a fulfilled literal second coming of Christ, not physical though. His second coming was just like "comings" the 1st. Century Jews were familiar with in the Old Testament.

    Isaiah 19

    1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

    Ps. 18: 8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured: Coals were kindled by it.
    9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.

    Ex.3
    8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

    Micah 1: 3 For, behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

    Many more examples like this speaking of "comings" in Judgement.

    Preterist also stress "Apocolyptic" language not being taken literally. Here is an example:

    Is 13:
    9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.
    11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    Describes God using the Medes to destroy Babylon. A historical past event. Yet when language like this is used in the New Testament,especially Revelation, futurist claim it must be literal.

    Preterist are said to spiritualize everything, yet look what Jesus said about His Kingdom:

    Luke 17:
    20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

    It is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual one. So why do we insist on attributing physical elements on a spiritual Kingdom?

    When does the Kingdom come? Jesus answers this question:

    Matt.16
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
    28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    So if the Kingdom came in the life of those disciples, then everything associated with the Kingdom( judgement,second coming, resurrection) also happened then. These are all spiritual.

    Here are 2 sites to Full-Preterist:

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm

    I recommend the series on "The Sermon on the Mount".

    http://www.eschatology.org/articles/articles.html

    Lots of articles dealing with numerous subjects on Eschatology.
     
  10. TomVols

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    Full orbed preterists who deny a return of Christ are rare birds. Most folks in the preterist camp are of the modified ilk ,as was stated earlier. That's where I am as a modified Amillenialist.

    Remember: eschatological categories can be nebulous. It can be like nailing Jello to a wall.
    Also remember that all the positions share many similarities. All recognize the unique nature of Apocalyptic in Revelation. All recognize the historical significance of the events of A.D. 70, though to varying degrees.

    I recommend a good systematic theology, such as Millard Erickson's Christian Theology or Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology for full treatments. Also, the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, edited by Walter Elwell, is essential.

    [ July 23, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: TomVols ]
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think Grasshopper has just expressed pretty much what I believe about end times. I guess that makes me a full preterist even though I also would probably leave room that this prophecy is also for us today in that we may see another "coming" of God to judge the earth for its unrighteousness and that it is a word of comfort for the people of God who are suffering persecution to "endure till the end" even to the point of dying for their faith and they will "never be harmed by the second death". This, of course, is not a works theology I am espousing here, for only those with Jesus in their lives will endure till the end and never be harmed by the second death. It is the work of Jesus that makes us Holy, righteous, and able to endure.

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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