Do these scriptures applied today?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mima, Mar 5, 2006.

  1. mima

    mima
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    After reading first Timothy 2:8-9 do these questions make us think?
    1. Do the men in your church raise their hands while praying? 2. Do the women in your church have broided hair, or gold, or pearls? Does the statement about costly array point to my wearing my very best to Church?
     
  2. gb93433

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    1. does not agree with the posture of the Jews when they worshiped God and prayed.

    The posture of the body is not important. It is a heart issue.
     
  3. drfuss

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    1. A few men and women in our church raise their hands, but most do not. Years ago, I was in a church where this scripture was used to pressure people to raise their hands. This scripture was taken out of context. While raising your hands is a form of surrender, the emphasis is really on "without anger of disputing". Hands are also raised when people are angry or disputing something.

    2. The women were to dress modestly with decency and propriety, and not like a woman of the street. The emphasis is on "appropriate for women who profess to worship God".

    Back to pressuring people to raising their hands during worship. If this scripture is used to tell people they should raise their hands, they should also tell the women of today to get rid of all their jewelry and expensive clothes. This is one of those scriptures that sometimes are applied way out of context.
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    If one is lifting hands to be seen of man, wearing costly array to be seen of man, they do so for the wrong reasons altogether.

    Solomon wrote in the Canticles, 'Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall'.

    Man cannot lift his flesh or his own righteosness up before the Lord. We should raise our hands in church from time to time. But only when it is the Spirit of God telling us to do so. The Psalmist wrote in Psalm 134:2 'Lift up your hands in the sanctuary; and bless the Lord'. Yes, lift your hands when the Spirit tells you to. Otherwise, keep 'em down. Wear your best for the Lord; not to impress man, nor to impress God, but with a humble heart of thanksgiving unto Him.
     
  5. TaterTot

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    Mima, all scripture applies today. But we must first ask ourselves what the original recipients understood it to mean, then how it should be applied to us in our social context. There's nothing inherrently wrong with wearing braids, gold and pearls. But we also shouldnt dress like streetwalkers. It didnt mean then what it means today, culturally.

    [ March 06, 2006, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: TaterTot ]
     
  6. mima

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    My reason for asking this question is; years ago my mother was made fun of because she raised her hands when she prayed once. I too have had people ask me why I do this sometimes. And then there's this little fact I dress very well to go to church, and the Scripture quoted in this question seemingly speaks against costly array. Now when I go witnessing I tried to dress in the manner of the people I will be witnessing to. For example if I'm going to a park my dress is very very casual,T-shirt and Bermuda pants.
     
  7. gb93433

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    There are a lot of people in churches today who are very judgmental and do not welcome new people nor do they share their faith and win people to Christ.

    Ask them why would they notice if their eyes are closed during the prayer time?
     
  8. av1611jim

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    Go ahead and lift your hands to God in worship. But be sure they are CLEAN when you do so. We are to lift HOLY hands.
    1TiĀ 2:8
    I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
     
  9. GLC

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    Good analysis "Standingfirm". Motives of the heart are so important for both our worship and our service. It's amazing how many folks want everyone else to worship & serve just like they do.
     
  10. Ransom

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    mima asked:

    1. Do the men in your church raise their hands while praying?

    Some do. But the key word in the passage is "holy," which defines the attitude in which prayer is to be done. Raising hands to pray was a cultural practice of Paul's day, not necessarily a direction that we have to follow in ours.

    2. Do the women in your church have broided hair, or gold, or pearls?

    Some women in Paul's day wore their hair in elaborate hairstyles as a way to show off their affluence. Our generation doesn't show off its wealth in our hair, but I'm sure there are other ways we do this - the jewelry we wear, the cars we drive, even the model of cellphone we carry.

    Does the statement about costly array point to my wearing my very best to Church?

    No, it points to people who flaunt their wealth in the faces of others to impress them.
     
  11. Ron Arndt

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    The answer is simple. Paul was writing to people and churches where customs back then were far different then in our modern world. Women were also veiled and most had long hair. Men wore robes. So Paul was addressing the folks OF THAT TIME.

    We can certainly apply the spiritual principles of Paul's exhortations, but not the literalism. For our customs and dress are far different today.
     
  12. TaterTot

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  13. Revmitchell

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    I was in a church as an early christian where someone who sang and lifted one of his hands during the song was not allowed to sing in front of the church again.

    In some churches if you lift up your hands or shout to loud they will run you out. Afraid someone will get charasmatic I suppose. I dont really understand it.

    When it comes to dress during our times of worship, do we not worship all the time? And it tight jeans and miniskirts ever appropriate? That is what is being worn in our churches today. And is kind of a taboo subject. Just where what ever you feel like it God is ok with it. (so they say)

    Why have we stopped including our dress code and music choices in our consecration? Have you put your very best into presenting yourself before God. It shows sacrifice and humility. That is not to say we all should wear three piece suites. But we should do our best. Some of us could invest in an iron.

    The posture of the body is entirely important. Most anytime men of the bible have come into Gods' presence they ended up prone on their face. Our posture is entirely important as well as our attitude.

    Our dress, our posture, and our hearts are all part of worship. Which should be done daily.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Our new pastor (less than 2 months) raises his hands when singing some songs. And he told us this past Sunday service that he would not mind if people raised a hand once in a while, or if they said 'Amen'.

    I believe in both. We are told by the Psalmist in Psalm 134:2 to 'lift up our hands in the sanctuary and bless the Lord.' Now, that does not give license to get all charismatic, just to be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit of God when it is trying to move in one's life.

    As to saying Amen once in a while, Jesus said once that if some were not allowed to praise Him, He would raise up rocks to praise Him. I don't want any rock to cry out in my place.

    If you are ashamed of Him before men, He will be ashamed of you before the Father.
     
  15. Ransom

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    Revmitchell said:

    I was in a church as an early christian where someone who sang and lifted one of his hands during the song was not allowed to sing in front of the church again.

    I can understand their concern. Darth Vader lifted one of his hands a couple of times in front of his admirals in The Empire Strikes Back, and look what happened to them!
     
  16. rbell

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    Tater, I'm ashamed at you for not knowing your Bible...It's in the book of Hesitations.

    (or maybe it's 1 Confusions...)
     
  17. TaterTot

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    dog, thats right~~ it comes right after "God helps those who help themselves".
     
  18. MRCoon

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    I agree with most here about the raising of holy hands with a right heart and atitude. I also think that we can (and should) apply this one step further. While nearly all of the churches that Paul (Titus and Timothy, too) served were considered Gentile churches and in Cities known for their Idol worship and "modern day" Roman and/or Greek ideology. Where the common practice was the bowing, raising of hands, dancing, and other practices associated with idol worshipping. That I believe Paul was reminding his young preachers about being influenced by these practices and being seperated from this with the right attitudes. We need to apply this and be aware that our actions could be a stumbling block and cause someone to think that we are being influenced by worldly religious practices. If our raising of hands in our Church causes people to think that we are allowing "charismatic" influence then we should not do it...because people can't know our hearts just our actions. I'm one of those "extremists" who don't think you should "clap" after a choir sings or someone sings a solo because that person should not be entertaining but singing to bring God the glory...but if people clap it seems to be a response as if at a concert.

    Now, I am an "Amen"-er and a "That's Right"-er with the occassional "Preach It" thrown in for good measure. But I do this for a Song special, choir number or a Sermon Point that speaks to my heart! I want the service to touch my heart before it touches my emotions and I believe this is what Paul was addressing.

    On the subject of vs. 9 and the "costly array" I believe this is to address those who go in their expensive clothes to make a show and impress their friends. Now I personally believe in wearing the best you have to Church...I think "dressing down" to make others more comfortable is wrong. I teach my children and my Youth Group that we should give God the best we have and want to dress a certain way out of respect to him. I use the example that nearly everyone would shower, put on deoderant, comb their hair, dress sharply and have a respectful attitude if they were going to meet the President (yes even Clinton) just out of respect to the office adn so why not give God even more! Just don't make it a show...because God knows the heart.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    The thing on the hand raising is this...

    If we don't raise our hands because we are afraid of causing a person to think we are charismatic, are we trying to please man? or God?

    As I posted before, the Psalmist said to lift up holy hands in the sanctuary. And Paul wrote that we are to lift up holy hands without wrath or doubting.

    If the Spirit prompts you to raise a hand in praise, you better do it.

    We ought to obey God rather than man. Acts 5:29
     
  20. rbell

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    Sorry, Mr. Coon, looks like you're gonna have to clap too:

    Psalm 47:1
    Clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.

    I am not charismatic, but we should be careful about comparing 1st-century resemblances of idolatrous worship to modern-day resemblances of charismatic worship. One is idolatrous; the other is worshiping God, just with some different (and many of us would say some errant) theology.

    A charismatic Christian of 2006 is not the same thing as an idol-worshiping first-century person.

    We should be careful about sending the wrong message and being a "stumbling block;" however, I don't think that Paul is saying to refrain from doing anything so that someone won't be upset. There are those in every church who look for reasons to be offended. I don't think their approval is the goal of our worship practices.

    Once again, just another baptist offering my $0.0005 (after taxes).
     

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