Do You Believe In The Doctrines of Grace?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin, Apr 15, 2007.

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  1. Martin

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    Do you believe in limited (particular) atonement? If so Jerry Falwell has declared you to be a heretic (message given on Friday, April 13 at LU). Don't feel bad however. After all a great number of Godly men like Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Roger Williams, Charles Spurgeon, Al Mohler, and John MacArthur (etc) are in the same boat since they all believed/believe in the doctrines of grace. I wonder if Falwell has given this that much thought? I wonder if he understands the implications of what he is saying?

    http://www.founders.org/blog/2007/04/jerry-falwells-friday-13th-declaration.html
     
  2. 3John2

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    Yes I believe in the doctrines of grace. You forgot to add John Piper & Mark Dever to that list of preachers as well. I didn't always believe that though & it was with MUCH studying & searching that I finally was convinced of that. Having said that when I WAS convinced I didn't exactly LIKE it!:BangHead:
     
  3. johnp.

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    We are ain't we Martin? 2 someone who has views and opinions that conflict with those of the majority. (Chambers) :) Praise the Lord.


    Who's Jerry Falwell?

    john.
     
  4. Jarthur001

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    sign me up as a heretic...

    BTW..not sure if that was a pun or not...but it was a great line....being falwell was founder of The Moral Majority
     
  5. npetreley

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    Me too. Oh cool! I'm in a club!
     
  6. James_Newman

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    Isn't that what the 'doctrines of grace' is talking about? A club that you have to be a member of to be saved?
     
  7. npetreley

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    As a matter of fact, it's quite an exclusive club of sinners and scum hand-picked by God before we were born according to no merit of our own, born not of blood, the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God.

    Aren't you a member? Or did you ditch this club in order to say you joined yours of your own free will?
     
  8. amity

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    ...........
     
  9. Rippon

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    I subscribe to particular redemption . I believe in the doctrine(s) of grace . Why ? Because the Bible tells me so ! Shame on Jerry !
     
    #9 Rippon, Apr 15, 2007
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  10. Allan

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    Now, I'm no particular lover of Jerry. and Caner needs to grow up at bit but...
    That is not what Jerry stated. He did not say that those of the doctrines of Grace or Calvinism were Heretics. The Founders blog quotes only one sentence in his sermon and that sentence does not say such. He states: (we being LU)
    Jerry's statement is in regard to "particular love or limited atonement", and not against Calvinism on the whole. Yes, you can 'assume' that is what he is meaning, and you can 'postulate' that statement as the premise of his thought but niether are factaul to what he actaully said and was specifically referencing.

    He states "they consider IT a heresy", and nothing more. They took what he said and stretched it as they ran with it. Not a good thing.

    It is not good for ANY brother in Christ to see what it feels like to be treated in such a way by another brother in Christ. This goes on from both sides and is disgraceful, or should I say UN-grace-filled.

    PERSONALLY, I think it is ridiculous the garbage both sides spew at times.
    Since Christian College and Seminary (and online blogging and debating over the years) I can not count how many times I have been called a heretic, believer of doctrines of demons BECAUSE I did not hold to Calvinism. Even on here on the BB a couple of times. These people have questioned my salvation, even stated I preach another gospel. One of my favorites was that I am a false teacher who is decieved into thinking I'm saved so I can lead the reprobates away from the true God , and fulfill my purpose of damnation for Gods glory. (SEBTS in 2001)

    The truth is, Unlimited Atonement has been a main theological understanding throught Christian history. It was held to by the majority of the early church fathers and even some Calvinists. They are both issues that have been around by varying degrees at different points in Christian history. They have been argued and still no biblical resolution has been established as to which is most true on the whole. Each person holds their own view but it has never been established as an immutable truth by which all believers agree. The atonement is held as immutable but 'limited and unlimited' regarding the mechanics are those issues being debated still.
     
    #10 Allan, Apr 15, 2007
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  11. Isaiah40:28

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    Wow, Liberty is definitely fighting back at the Calvinists.
    Jerry Falwell, Ergun Caner and Gordon Olson all taking their turns at shooting down Calvinism.
    Maybe Dave Hunt should move to Virginia and help centralize the anti-Calvinist camp.
    :sleeping_2:
     
  12. Rippon

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    Tis a shame that such a clear and pervasive doctrine as special redemption has been denied by so many professing Christians throughout Christian history . Christ died for the express purpose of securing the salvation of His elect . It can't be made any plainer than what is laid-out in Holy Writ . Why many "bible-Believers' deny the doctine , and with such vehemence at times is both sad and sinful .
    "Church leaders' such as Caner , Falwell , Geisler , Hunt , Finney , Wesley , Moody , Sunday and countless others have a great deal of accountability for their false teaching regarding this doctrine .
     
    #12 Rippon, Apr 15, 2007
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  13. joycebuckner

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    I am saved through the grace of the One and true Living God. Through what His son Jesus Christ did for me so that I wouldn't have to spend all eternity in hell. I excepted that loving grace and my Lord and Savior. Because of excepting what Jesus did for me I am Heaven bound. I have been told that because I believe this (by calvinist) that I glory in my part of my salvation.
    I do Glory in the only part that I can when it comes to my salvation............Being smart enough to see that I can;t save myself and only by excepting what Christ Jesus did for me can I be saved.
    That is what the bible teaches and Mr. Farwell teaches as well.
    Do we all see everything exactly a like?????no . Will we ever ?no. But you people come to this Baptist Board to find someone to fight with and Lord knows you can always find a reason to argue.
    I came in here tonight to visit like minded people. I agree with some and disagree with some ......so what... You people are always acting like Rosey Odonald.....Find anything good and find away to gripe about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    God bless and have mercy on your all...If the anti-christ werre here, you would all die trying to turn each other in to him. Try the love of Jesus,,,,,If you have it it will come out and an arguing sight like this will sicken you
     
  14. Allan

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    My point in spades.
    But Rippon you also once again you neglect the myriads of others throughout history who did not hold to such a doctrine.
    So, since you forgot to add these and a host of others throughout history I will remind you many that both you and I have already discussed and to which I have shown historically and documentedly their position on Atonment as being General:
    You might remember our discussion in one of your threads some time ago : Early Church dad and they children - (I think)

    This is a copied post from our conversations, since it is much easier to copy/paste than rewrite it all agian. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #14 Allan, Apr 16, 2007
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  15. pinoybaptist

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    You are either saved thru the merit of Christ alone, independent of your actions, prayers, tears, understanding, or speech, or you are saved because you took some action about what Christ did. Can't be two ways. Speak only from one side of your mouth, please.

    As for the debate and argumentations here, we people, the adherents to the Doctrine of Grace, whom you apparently dislike and disdain and allude to as troublemakers and rabblerousers (despite Christ's instructions about calling your brother names, such as "fool") have been discussing these with you meek, soft-speaking, loving, gentle, Christ-like, heaven-bound, decision-making people, and though oftentimes the discussion do get sharp both sides (yes, please believe that us troublemaking, good-for-nothing rabblerousers, too) do their best to keep most discussions civil, complete with Scriptural and extra-scriptural references, even before you came here.
     
    #15 pinoybaptist, Apr 16, 2007
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  16. Allan

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    You REALLY DO have a martyrdom complex. You need to have that looked at.
    And if your salvation has nothing to do with you my friend, then why MUST YOU BELEIEVE. If salvation is NOTHING of you then there is NO need for faith but unfortunately scripture speaks to the contrary. You ARE involved in that if you DO NOT BELEIVE you WILL NOT be saved and God said so.

    BTW- If you will Re-Read what she wrote, you will notice she includes EVERYONE in this thread including ME...and she's my mother :laugh:
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Allan,

    I mean really. How many times must we go over this list of misleading quotes? I have gone over it with you two times myself. And you think the OP was misleading? This long list has more then just one misleading quote, far beyond what one will find in the OP. If you think others should not mis-quote, please follow your own words. :)
     
  18. Allan

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    Actually James, they are not misleading, and I showed you specifically they were not misleading by showing you where, when, and in what context each one you had questions on as to the validity of the quote. Go back and read. You never did comment after that anyway, other than to say that it is not an easy thing to show the early church father before 200 or so were specifically calvinistic. I agree and showed you were each one AFTER that was quoting that Atonement is General or Universal but Redemption is specific.

    If you remember correctly I went back and cut/pasted the EXACT quote which was made in that thread, AND gave the exact location so you could go look for yourself at the context. This post I place here in SHOWS what those works were so people would not have to take our word for it but the authors themselves. I went back and found them point for point and gave the historical documents that you can go back to and find it for yourself.

    This is speaking to Limited Atonement NOT Calvinism and it was directly to what Jerry was speaking of when he stated "we consider it a heresy".

    P.S. - though there were a couple which had points PARAPHRASED, that does not indicate a mis-quote but the main point concerning their quote. I did however go back and pull SPECIFIC quotes for your viewing pleasure and more so in the original thread. :)
     
    #18 Allan, Apr 16, 2007
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  19. Allan

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    Here is a web link to our conversation, just in case.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=36710&page=6&highlight=early+church+dads
    It should take you to page 2 where you and I began. But I will place here, our last conversation.
    And my last post to you:
    As you can see you do not dispute the quotes I give. And as I stated SOME were re-worded in paraphrase form but I dealt with that by giving full disclosure of what was being referenced in its full context.
     
    #19 Allan, Apr 16, 2007
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  20. Martin

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    ==Since particular atonement (limited atonement) is a major part of Calvinism I think the Founder's Blog got it right.

    ==If something is a "heresy" those who teach that something are heretics. I see no way around that. That is why I asked in my post if Falwell really understands the implications of his remarks? Personally I don't think he does. I don't think he would call John MacArthur, John Piper, Al Mohler, or Tom Nettles, heretics. I certainly don't believe Falwell would call George Whitefield a heretic. I believe Falwell, like Caner, is on a anti-Calvinism rant right now and is saying things that he has not carefully thought through. That would be a big problem for anyone but it is a really big problem with the ones doing it are leaders of a major Church, Christian University, and seminary.


    ==I will not deny that there are folks on both sides who go to extremes.
     
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