Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, May 15, 2008.
Do you believe in the Rapture and Why? Why not?
I don't know, whether you really want to do this or not. In effect! you have just opened the lid on pandoras box.
There are so many different opinions held on this subject, I am afraid you won't know any more at the end, than you know now. Nor will it settle anything.
But personally, yes! I believe in the "catching up", but I don't subscribe to the traditional Pre-trib doctrine. Why?, because you have to miss-apply too many scriptures, to make this opinion work. While ignoring others, that more or less refute it.
I know someone is immediately! going to ask me to prove it. But I have too many other things to do, to spend the time on a fruitless argument. Like reading my Bible, or talking about something less contentional.
Peace be with you. raying:
I believe Jesus will return one more time and take those that are His because that is what I understand the scriptures to be saying.
God Bless!! I hope you are your family is doing awesome. Trustitl, I have a question. What do you make of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
Only one eschatological viewpoint out of many includes the rapture.
My family is doing way better than it deserves. Praise God! Thanks and I hope the same goes for you and yours.
I Cor. 15 is talking about the resurrection and what happens to us when we die. SOme were preaching that there was no resurrection to which Paul says the whole gospel is worthless if there is none.
After saying that this corrputible must put on incorruption he explains why: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. How will that happen? All I know is what the BIble says. Those that died will be raised in an incorrutible state while those still living will be changed. And all this "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". That blows me away.
When will it happen? At the last trumpet sounding. And those who have not died will never feel its sting.
Why do I think that this "rapture" is the end?
"Christ is the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power"
Another question since it says at the last trumpet, this basically means that the Church will be here for the 7 seals and the first 6 trumpets, is that right?
Depends what you mean by the Rapture. If you are using it just to mean that Christ, at His Second Coming, will take Christians to be with Himself, then yes, I do believe it. I Thessalonians 4.16-17:
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
But if you mean what is sometimes called the "Secret Rapture", the idea that Christ will return once secretly to take His people to be with Him, then appear again seven years later publicly in judgment, I don't believe that. The words "shout", "voice of an archangel" and "trumpet" do not indicate secrecy.
I do indeed believe there will be a "rapture" of the saints in the future. We will be "caught up" in the air with Christ.
The reason I believe it is because I believe the scriptures proclaim it.
Thanks, David. I never heard of the secret rapture term before, but what you said helps.
What are your thoughts on Tali's question about the seals and trumpets?
Thanks and God Bless!! I also believe we will be caught up at the last trumpet. The scriptures in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
Now after the last trumpet, comes the seven bowls and the wrath of God. Based on 1 Corinthians 15: verse 50-54 it indicates that the Church will not be here after the last trumpet the 7th trumpet. This would indicate that God's Church will be here during the tribulation doesnt it? Some teach that it wont be here during the tribulation but in Corinthians it talks about the Church being caught up or rapture but its not like most show it to be, that we will be secretely raptured before it all starts. There are also some that say that we wont be caught up at all. Maybe I am wrong here, I need help in this subject. Thanks for all of your posts and may GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!! Have an awesome Weekend!!!
Here is why! I don't believe in the Secret Rapture doctrine. On top of the verses that have already been mentioned, that the Lord will descend with a shout, "not very secret".
It will be the same shout he made at the grave of lazrus, "Come Forth". Some contend had the lord not called Lazrus by name, all the dead would have arisen at that time.
First one, Paul says this must happen first. And as the Lords day starts with the coming for his Church, looks pretty positive.
2Th:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Those mentioned here are not Jews, Saints represent the Church.
Re:13:7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Why would a bunch of sinners even think, or care about this.
Re:17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
When the Lord comes for his Church, the door will be closed, and the days of the Church will be complete. None saved after this.
M't:25:10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
M't:25:11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
M't:25:12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Amen, Brother Samuel Owen -- Preach it!
The noise is so loud it wakens the DEAD!!! :jesus: -- that is pretty noisy.
Resurrection1 - an event in which Jesus raises the dead saints from their graves and gives them new bodies
Rapture1 - and event in which Jesus changes the bodies of living saints to new bodies
Resurrection2 - A resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1 that happens at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel (AKA: The Tribulation Judgment Period)
Rapture2 - A resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1 that happens at the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel (AKA: The Tribulation Judgment Period)
Resurrection3 - an event in which Jesus raises the lost dead for final/terminal judgment
Saints - people saved by Jesus
My comprehensive theory of Eschatology shows all these from scripture and mathematical logic.
// Those mentioned here are not Jews, Saints represent the Church.
Re:13:7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.//
Totally wrong. Here Saints are the Jews -- all the Church age, mostly gentile (but the Messanic Jews) are GONE at the pretribualtion Rapture2.
As I said earlier, I don't subscribe to the pre-trib rapture doctrine. Only if you do! can you make these saints differ from the Church.
It could be the other way around: when you see there is a difference between the Church elect Saint's Church and the Jewish/Israeli elect Saint's Church -- you will believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture2.
25 Oct 2004
Which of the followingdo you believe?
This poll will close on 02-17-2008 at 05:42 PM
VOTES % --------- belief
15 46.88% == Baptist + OSAS + pretrib
3 9.38% == Baptist + OSAS + post-trib
0 0% == Baptist + non-OSAS + pretrib
3 9.38% == Baptist + non-OSAS + post-trib
0 0% == non-Baptist + OSAS + pretrib
0 0% == non-Baptist + OSAS + post-trib
0 0% == non-Baptist + non-OSAS + pretrib
3 9.38% == non-Baptist + non-OSAS + post-trib
7 21.88% == not any three of those
1 3.13% == say what?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 32.
IMHO that poll shows that
OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved (Security of the Believer)
& pretribulation rapture2
DENOTE BAPTISTS distinct from other groups
The strange part is that 7/32 of the folks voted 'not any three of those' which I think means they are:
neither Baptists nor non-Baptists
neither OSAS nor non-OSAS
neither pretrib nor post-trib
I can see neither 'pretrib nor post-trib' - they might be post-millinnial or a-millinnial or preterists. But seems the Baptist/non-Baptist split is rather seperate. But seems the OSAS non-OSAS split is rather seperate. But I'm just a guesser, usually???
Well since I don't particularly like the OSAS thing either, not that there is anything wrong with it. But it leaves the door open for those who believe you can livelike "H", and still be saved. I prefer to say eternal security.
And none of the choices, are in line with my thoughts on the rapture, I guess I would fall into the Other category.
Do you believe in the Rapture?
25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
13And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
14And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
15And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
17And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
18And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
...I was (became) in the Spirit on (in) the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet…
...I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was (became) in the spirit…
...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…
...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…
...the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master...And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahairoi; for he dwelt in the south country. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels were coming
...And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city…
25And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
26And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
30And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
...Note the order of events...
(a man slain by his brother) = Christ
(a man taken out of the world) = Christians
(a man going through a worldwide flood) = Israel