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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, Apr 21, 2013.
Give some scriptures that support your view when the Church started....and your thoughts also.:type:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:10,11
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; Eph 2:20
I would say that Pentecost was a further fulfillment of the Old Testament in relation to the coming of the Messiah of Israel (prophecy of Joel).
Since I'm a Pauline Gentile Dispensationalist, I would say that the Gentile Church was not yet formed as a separate entity from Judaism.
After the destruction of the Temple, there no longer remained a hope for Israel to repent...
(*until the Gentile church is raptured that is, and the Great Tribulation begins). :wavey:
Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry. When Jesus finished selecting his twelve disciples, he had a church. Early on he had one ordinance in regular use, baptism. Before his crucifixion and resurrection, he had instituted the Lord's Supper.
He ordained them: Matthew 3:13
He sent them out on mission trips. Matthew 10:9
He empowered them: Matthew 10:1
Remember, they came back amazed, saying, "even the demons are subject to us."
Before Pentecost, the Head of the church had a church.
Jesus said he would "build my church." Mathew 16:18. Before Pentecost.
Jesus instructed his disciples in church discipline. Matthew 18:17
Definitely started in Acts 2.
That he might sanctify and cleanse it (her) with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it (her) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it (she) should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:26,27 -------- I wonder when she will be that clean?
The like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50 Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? Matt.20:22
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Matt. 20:23
I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (her) Matt. 16:18
O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:55
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor. 15:23,24
Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Isaiah 66:7 ----- Christ the firstfruits
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isaiah 66:8 ------ The church, Jerusalem above the mother of all, giving birth to the kingdom of God?????
The dispy view, as I understand it, holds that it was the Holy Spirit who formed the church at Pentecost.
But Jesus said HE would build the church
He said HE would build HIS church. Which he did. At Pentecost it was already assembled. We know that there were at least 120 members by then.
Up to that point, after the crucifixion, this band of brothers and sisters lived in some fear. But at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit empowered and emboldened them. They were no longer fearful, even though persecution was to come.
The power that Jesus gave his twelve during his ministry resumed, only on a larger scale from Pentecost on.
But, that was not all that was necessary. The indwelling of the Spirit had not yet occurred. The church could not begin without the power it needed.
Luk 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
If indwelling had not occurred, why did Jesus breathe on his disciples and say to them "Receive ye the Holy Spirit"? Before Pentecost?
But apparently indwelling is not the same as empowering. You quoted Luke 24:49, which is consistent with Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come UPON you."
And well after Pentecost, Peter was preaching (Acts 4) "Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit..."
Does that mean that until that moment, Peter was not filled with the Holy Spirit? Or that it comes and goes, depending on the need? Peter was filled with the Spirit on Pentecost. Then he was filled with the Spirit sometime later. What happened in between, if anything?
Is filling the same as being baptized in the HS?
Seems to me that all these descriptions can't all mean the same thing.
I don't have it all figured out. But I'm pretty sure some of you do, so I'll be interested in hearing more about this issue.
Correct!!! But, perhaps another way to understand that, is that Christ had "built" or "Instituted" the Church....already during his earthly ministry, but specifically told them to "wait" until the indwelling would empower them. That is (at least) how I understand it. Your verse could serve to demonstrate that his Institution (the Church) existed, but that Pentecost was when he empowered it...That would be consistent with the Theology that Tom and I adhere to. It makes perfect sense to us, that they were told to "wait"...until such time as the Spirit could "add" unto them. :thumbs: Decidedly...they could do nothing without the unction of the Holy Spirit. The "you" in your verse...we tend to see as the "Church".
:thumbs::thumbs:Great post Tom....I've always understood the "Indwelling" of the Holy Spirit to be not only distinct from (what I call the unction), but also unique to the N.T. era. I have always believed the Holy Spirit can "come upon" any of his saints (even in the OT)...but the "Indwelling" itself, is altogether different. Some may disagree. I wish I had paid closer attention to the threads previously about how the Holy Spirit acted in the OT...I would also like VERY much to learn more about this.
you could say the apsotles and disciples of jesus were the 'proto church", those called out from among national israel to Him, bu tthe church itself came birthed on pentacost, as that is when the HS came to indwel all belivers, for jesus told his own that right now he is with them, and on them, but will be in them forever whrn jesus ascends and sends him back!
it seems that while jesus was here, the HS was NOT here as he is now, and that jesus sent him to earth to function NOW in the church Age of grace!
Jesus had to die and be raised and ascended back to the father in order for the HS to come and start the church Age proper!
When did Jesus go to His Father?
It is sometimes argued that the disciples could not have received the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday (the day that Jesus was resurrected) because the Holy Spirit was not able to be permanently received by anyone until after the Ascension (when Jesus physically ascended back up to heaven). This view is based on the following passages:
"But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever" (John 14:16)
"After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight." (Acts 1:3-9)
In the first two passages above, it appears that the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) would not permanently come to the disciples until after Jesus had "gone away" to the Father. In Acts 1:3-9 (above) I see that Jesus "went away" 40 days after the Resurrection by ascending up to heaven. If the Holy Spirit was not able to be permanently received by anyone until after the Ascension, then the disciples could not have received the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday.
On the surface, this sounds like a strong argument. However, there is an assumption being made here, and assumptions can easily lead us into error. This argument assumes that Jesus was referring to the Ascension when He said that He must "go away" before the Holy Spirit can be sent. But is this really what Jesus meant? The only way to know for sure is to prayerfully, honestly, and objectively search for the greatest weight of evidence in Scripture so that we can see the full picture of what Jesus meant in John 16:7
he told them that its when he went back to the father, ascended, then he wills end back the HS!
Me thinks you are on to something.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Gal. 3:14
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal. 3:22
And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, Gal. 3:23 YLT
and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, Gal. 3:25 YLT
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32 By grace through the faith Eph 5:8 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth (sent) this, which ye now see and hear.
That is how he went away and how he sent the Spirit.
Jesus gave his life for our sins. God the Father by grace raised him from the dead to life. God the Father gave Jesus the promise of the Holy Spirit and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the sheep, God calls through Jesus and they leave unbelief unto belief.
According to mercy (The faith of Jesus in his blood) God saved us, by washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit (The grace of God, life) Which he then through Jesus, poured forth on the called according to purpose.
This assumes that it happened for them at that moment. I do not see it as being that.
Following is a portion of a paper I wrote when I chose to study this subject:
The answers to the following questions will reveal much about the true beginning of the New Testament church. Where in Scripture do we find the terms of entrance into Christ’s church? What direct references does Jesus make concerning the church? Where does Scripture first directly mention souls being added to the New Testament church? When did the Old Covenant end, and when did the New Covenant begin? When did Jesus fulfill the requirements of the law? Was there a New Testament church before there was a New Testament? Do the Old and New Covenants overlap or is there a sharp division between them? Can the beginning of the New Testament church be demonstrated by numerous Scriptural passages without having to explain the meaning into the text with presupposition? There are many verses which give a clear picture of when the New Testament church began, or just as importantly, when it could not have begun.
One of the keys to understanding when the New Testament church began is in discerning the very basics of what the church is. The church, in its purest form, is an assembly of two or more born-again, Holy Spirit indwelt believers who are in a covenant relationship with God through the mediation of Christ as our High Priest under His headship. That’s it. There are no other Scriptural prerequisites placed upon the church. Therefore, we must search the Scriptures to discover where these elements converged; nothing added and nothing removed. An honest study of the Word will reveal that the only place and time this could have occurred was when the Holy Spirit began His indwelling of believers on the day of Pentecost. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about when the church began? Is it passages of Scripture or church doctrine? What you’ve read in the Word, or what you’ve heard a pastor preach? The answer to these questions will reveal what your beliefs are based upon; the Word of God or the words of man.
The beginning and essence of the church is founded in five primary doctrines upon which all other church-related doctrines rest. First, the Age of Grace, Church Age, or Dispensation of Grace, as dispensationalists call it, is founded upon a blood covenant; the covenant of the blood and body of Jesus Christ. According to Hebrews 10:1-22 and 11:32-40, we have salvation, sanctification, remission of sins, and access to the true holiest of holies by the shed blood of Christ. This is accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is synonymous with our having received the very righteousness of Christ. Also, according to Hebrews 7-10, Christ did not become the mediator of the New Covenant until the Covenant was sealed by His death. The termination of the law Covenant was signified by the splitting of the temple veil. For the Testament in Christ to begin, the old Testament must first end. Christ died under the law Covenant of the Law. This is not man’s wisdom or religious dogma; it is clear Bible doctrine that is explained in great detail. I am amazed at pastors and long-time believers who completely overlook unambiguous Bible doctrine in lieu of denominational teachings.
Second, the resurrection of Christ as our ever living High Priest demonstrated God’s acceptance of His sacrifice. Under the law, any high priest who entered the holy of holies unworthily or with an unworthy sacrifice was struck dead. This is the reason why Paul said, “And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” Paul knew the law and understood the resurrection’s role in the fulfillment of the law. Jesus did not become our High Priest until after He fulfilled the role of the ever-living High Priest. This included remaining alive after offering the sacrifice of His own blood to God. How could Jesus’ followers be priests before God with access to the very throne of God before Christ became their High Priest? The answer is simple. They could not. Therefore, eternal salvation and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness by the accepted sacrifice came at a time after He rose from the dead. The church would have been an unregenerate assembly up to that point.
Third, Christ’s ascension into the Holiest of Holies to present the blood sacrifice to God was the final fulfillment of the law under the old Covenant. The sin offerings under the old Covenant were pictures and types of Christ. The sins of the people were temporarily covered for one year after the offering was accepted by God in the earthly holy of holies; the physical representation of the true Holy of Holies at God’s throne. Therefore, the sins of all the followers of Yahweh and Jesus Christ in all ages were not eternally covered until the true sacrifice of Christ’s blood was offered directly to God in heaven. God could not have been any clearer when he inspired these words, “Without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins).” “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” “When he had by himself purged our sins, (He) sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Our sins were covered by the shed blood of Christ when it was offered to God at His throne. This truth is not implied, inferred, nor hidden in the original languages of Scripture. God has stated it clearly.
Fourth, Jesus is the Head of the church. Scripture states that God the Father set Him as the Head of the church after His ascension. There is no life in the body without the head. To place the beginning of the New Testament Church at the beginning of Jesus’ earthly ministry requires that Jesus be the elder of the first local church. Scripture never identifies Him as anything less than the Head and Saviour of the body. This doctrine is rooted in assumption; not in clearly stated Biblical doctrine. Elders are elected to position by a vote of men. This is the consistent Scriptural example. No man voted Christ into any position within the church. Putting Him in the position of a pastor or earthly elder places Him under the authority of the congregation. There is not a single verse of Scripture which supports this doctrine. Passages which are used to prove this belief are followed with explanations of how the passage implies or infers something that is not directly stated within the text. This is the same hermeneutic that Catholic and Protestant churches use to support infant baptism, Mary worship, baptismal regeneration, theistic evolution, and other false doctrines. How can we say that their use of this interpretational method is invalid, and then turn around and use the very same methods to prove our own church doctrines? The text says what God meant it to say; without implication or inference. Passages should only be clarified by Scriptural comparison; not by human reasoning. It could even be argued that any doctrine which defines Christ as an elder in a local church is heresy.
Fifth, there could be no church without the baptism or indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the promise and seal of an individual’s salvation. The indwelling indicates a new relationship with God that is distinctly different from what was known under the Covenant of the law. God had symbolically dwelt in the tabernacle and in the Temple, but He now dwells literally in the soul of every believer by the indwelling of His Spirit. The only references to church membership clearly show it to be an act of God by baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is the seal of the New Covenant; the promise of the Father. During Jesus’ ministry, the baptism of believers by Christ into the Holy Spirit was always referred to in the future tense. Just before His ascension, Christ himself told the apostles to go to Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Sprirt. He stated “I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” The promise of the Spirit could not be fulfilled until the sacrifice was made to God. Why is it so difficult to accept this doctrine? It is not due to a lack of clarity on God’s part. Where is the ambiguity that lends to a different interpretation? It is not there. Believers were not eternally indwelt by the Spirit until after Christ’s ascension. How could believers be indwelt by the Spirit before the sacrifice was made? In writing to the Hebrews, Paul was referring to old Testament believers when he wrote, “And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive the promise, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” There was neither indwelling of, nor baptism in, the Holy Spirit under the law, and the Holy Spirit was sent as the Administrator of the New Covenant after Christ fulfilled every single requirement of the law in relation to the sin offering. I have heard objections to this teaching, but not with contradictory passages. Besides, Scripture does not contradict itself unless we are reading the meaning into the text.
The Five Doctrinal Foundations of the New Testament church:
1. the New Covenant by the death and shed blood of Christ as the sacrifice for our sins
2. the resurrection of Christ as our ever living High Priest
3. the ascension of Christ into the Holiest of Holies to present the blood sacrifice to God
4. God set Christ as the Head of the church, “which is His body”
5. the sending of the Holy Spirit as the seal of the New Covenant and as the Promise of the Father
The New Covenant:
Hebrews 9:8-14 Eternal redemption came after Christ offered His own blood in the true holy of holies (holy place)
Hebrews 9:15-17 Jesus’ testament became binding only after His death.
Hebrews 10:9-12 The Old Covenant ended at His death before He established the New Covenant.
Hebrews 10:13 Salvation was not perfected/complete until after his sacrifice
Hebrews 10:20 His flesh became the veil to the true holiest of holies.
Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45 The covenant of the law ended when the veil was rent. The tabernacle was no longer the physical representation of the person & presence of God.
Acts 20:28 When did Christ purchase the church with His own blood?
Luke 22:19-20 The “Lord’s Supper” is a demonstration of the new Covenant in His Blood; the old covenant was in the blood of animals
John 20:17 Jesus did not present His blood sacrifice to the Father until after His ascension.
Hebrews 8:1-7 Jesus could not be our High Priest & Mediator until after His ascension.
Romans 8:1-4; 2 Corinthians 5:21 When did Jesus condemn sin in the flesh and fulfill the righteousness of the law? When did God condemn our sin in Christ’s flesh?
Hebrews 1:3 Our sins were not purged until after Christ’s death
Future References to the Church:
Matthew 16:18 …I will build my church: future tense — The verb tense where the writer portrays an action or state of being that will occur in the future(1st occurrence, occurs only in Matthew's Gospel)
Mark 9:1 they shall see the kingdom (church) come in power
John 7:38-39 Spirit not given until after Jesus was glorified.
Acts 1:1-12 Spirit baptism is a prerequisite to the “Great Commission”.
First Reference to the Present Existence of the Church:
Acts 2:47 The Lord added to the assembly.
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit:
Mark 1:8, Acts 2:1-4, John 15:26 & 6:7 The church began at the first baptism (indwelling) in the Holy Spirit. This is the first time that all necessary aspects of the New Covenant were in effect.
Matthew 3:11 Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit: future tense
John 14:16-20 Jesus describing “the day” of the first Spirit baptism
John 16:7 The Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus left (to offer the sacrifice to God)
Luke 24:44-49 Evangelism to start in Jerusalem, wait there for the baptism of the Spirit
Acts 11:15 The Spirit fell at the beginning of what? The Church
Ephesians 2:8-22 All believers are the household, habitation, and temple of God through the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:4-6; Acts 11:16, 18:24-26, 19:1-5 The “one baptism” is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the baptism of John. His baptism was a type of the inward baptism.
Ephesians 4:8-12 the spiritual gifts given after His ascension
1 Corinthians 12:12-28 All believers baptized into one body
Christ is the Head of the church:
Ephesians 1:19-23 God set Christ as the Head of the body/church after His ascension.
Colossians 1:18 Jesus is the Head of the Body, the church.
Ephesians 2:20 The New Testament apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church.
Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and then He came back to the earth later that same day (which was about 40 days before the Ascension). Several different lines of evidence all lead to that conclusion:
ONe....According to Acts 1:3-9, the Ascension happened almost a month and a half (40 days) after the Resurrection. But look what happened on the night before Jesus was crucified:
"It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father." (John 13:1)
Just before the Last Supper, on the night before Jesus was crucified, He knew that the time had come for Him to leave this world and go to the Father. Is this referring to the Ascension, which was still a month and a half away, or did Jesus leave this world and go to the Father at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection? I believe He went to the Father on the day He was resurrected...If so then it is possible that they did receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them!
Here's what He said to the disciples on the night before He was crucified:
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe." (John 14:28-29)
Jesus said that He was going to the Father and then coming back to the disciples, and then they would believe the things He said about Himself. When did the disciples believe these things? On the day that Jesus was resurrected (John 20:19-31). On Resurrection Sunday, Jesus went to the Father and then returned to the earth, just as He promised He would.