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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2012.
As a seperate and distinct act of the Holy spirit after being "born again?"
Church of God is similar in that Speaking in tongues is the initial evidence to "baptism in the Holy Spirit." However, the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" does not occur until you obtain a clean heart or subsequent to a clean heart. Holiness is key.
No. There are many "in-fillings", or times of being filled with the Spirit, but "baptism" by/in the Holy Spirit occurs when one comes to faith in Jesus and is thus born again. That's what I believe.
That is correct. There are the "two-experience" Pentecostals, such as Assemblies of God, who were influenced by Baptists and thus don't believe the holiness doctrine; then there are the "three-experience" Pentecostals such as you mentioned -- CoG, CoG of Prophecy, etc., who were influenced by Methodism/Wesleyanism and thus believe the order is (1) saved, (2) entirely sanctified, and (3) baptized in the Holy Spirit. The AoG would believe (1) saved, (2) baptized in the Holy Spirit.
One group sees possibility of "sinless perfection", while AoG sees it as being possible to live overcoming lives by additional empowering by the "baptism of the Holy Ghost!"
And then there is the group (I don't know how many worldwide) which has received:
-- born-again salvation (with the Holy Spirit coming INSIDE)
-- baptism with the Holy Spirit (with the Holy Spirit coming UPON) with the evidence of speaking in tongues
... both at the same time, i.e. simultaneously.
Those who have been gloriously saved with the precious Holy Spirit coming INSIDE,
and who did not speak in tongues, have to wonder, "What's with this other deal?"
This is close to the view that I hold--that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit at conversion, and indwelt at that point.
There may be subsequent fillings, but not as a second work of grace held by the Pentecostals.
I do not believe the baptism in the Spirit occurs today. I believe it was an historical event that all texts prior to Acts 2 points forward to and all texts after Acts 2 point back to. I believe the baptism in the Spirit is one and the same with the day of dedication and the shikinah glory that occurred once at the inaugeration of each new house of God. Acts 2 is the public accreditation of the church as the newest house of God. I believe it is this PLURAL "you" as a congregational body of baptized believers that was publicly accredited on the day of Pentecost and that the Holy Spirit has always regenerated and indwelt individual believers and that coming up "on" them has been reference to MANIFEST power of God.
There is a baptism of the Holy Ghost that takes place at the point of salvation, and you get everything He has to offer. One does not get saved today, and then later on down the road, get a "second dose", and then start sounding like, "glub, glurbble, blubble, glurb, sppppphhhhhccchh".
I agree with that. But I do believe you get filled again and again, and there are stages of growth -- that's what I would call progressive sanctification.
Furthermore, there is but "one baptism" and it is not Spirit baptism but water baptism that is to be administered until the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20).
Second, do you know the difference between 1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:17??? The first SINGULAR "temple" has to do with a PLURAL "you" as the house of God while the second SINGULAR "temple" has to do with a SINGULAR "you" as the house of God. The Spirit of God indwells both and they are not the same. The first is the church of Christ while the second is your own physical body. The first has to do with the baptism in the Spirit while the second has to do with regeneration and the indwelling of the Spirit in your own physical body.
Third, the baptism in the Spirit is not an individual personal experience of any kind as the nearest reference point for what Peter saw at the house of Corneilius which he defined as the "baptism in the Spirit" prophesied by John was "AT the beginning." There had been thousands saved and added to the congregation at Jerusalem SINCE the beginning and yet the nearest reference point Peter could point to for a similar event was "AT the beginning."
If the baptism in the Spirit was an ongoing personal application to all the saved or a secondary experience of grace Peter would not have had to refer to "the beginning" as the nearest reference point but would have said "SINCE the beginning."
The baptism in the Spirit was the common ordinary historical variety that occurred ONCE at the beginning of every new "house of God" after it was initially built.
1. It occurred upon the tabernacle built by Moses - Ex. 40:35
2. It occurred upon the temple built by Solomon - 2 Chron. 7:1-3
3. It occured upon the congregation built by Christ - Acts 2
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation
of repentance from dead works and
of faith toward God,
of the doctrine of baptisms (plural),
of laying on of hands,
of resurrection of the dead, and
of eternal judgment.
I am not quite sure how you understand this passage or what your intent may be?
However, this passage is a mild rebuke that needs to be interpreted in connection with his previoius rebuke in Heb. 5:12-14. These are the baby steps that should not have to be retaught to them. These are the abc,s of the Great Commission. He wanted to go on and teach them "meat" (Heb. 5:11) but they had digressed where they needed to be taught again first principles that normally are laid down as foundational principles at the beginning of the Christian life (Great Commission, gospel salvation, baptism, basic instruction in the all things).
These are the first principles of the doctrine "of Christ" not "of Moses." There are three couplets that deal with the abc's of salvation (repentance of dead works and faith toward God) and service (doctrine of baptisms and laying on of hands) and second coming (resurrection and judgement).
The plural baptisms' refer to the abc's of water baptism, baptism in the Spirit and baptism of suffering. Spirit baptism publicly identifies and accredits the house of God as the WAY of service. Water baptism introduces you into that house as a metaphorical member (1 Cor. 12:27) and baptism of suffering is the consequence of identification with the house of God as the pillar and ground of "the truth."
The laying on of hands refers to the setting apart and ordaining of men to office in the house of God as defenders and teachers of the truth of God's Word.
These are fundemental's, abc's and foundational principles to any new child of God that has been under the third aspect of the great commission for any nominal length of time and ought to be known. Those outside the house of God - the congregations of Christ may be ignorant of the basics of salvation, service and the second coming but should not be.
While the above is correct about the AOG, the AOG also believe Christians can live overcoming lives without the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
The Pentscostal Holiness Denomination, which is the oldest Pentecostal denomination, believes in salvation, a second work of grace (santified), and the baptism of the Holy Ghost as three different events in a Christian's life.
Below is what the Pentecostal Holiness denomination, from their website, believes about sinless perfection.
"It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not "sinless perfection," if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life."
My intent was to point you to the "baptisms" (plural) vs. "one baptism".
Baptism into the church body is done by the Holy Spirit ... resulting in the HS coming INSIDE ---> salvation.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus Himself ... resulting in the HS coming UPON ---> anointing.
Many verses are available for both.
If anyone is interested in a chart showing the LINKAGES with the UPON verses,
and what they entail, I can provide it for you.
And, of course, I agree with your baptism in water and baptism by fire.
Recently, I came across a very compelling proof that Paul was NOT referring to full-immersion water baptism,
which was quite shocking!
Only "one baptism" is literal while the other is metaphorical and by the time Ephesians had been written baptism in the Spirit had been fulfilled. Hence, there was but "one" literal baptism and that is the baptism in the Great commission.
This is true in a limited sense. The Age long commissioned baptism is in water as people ("ye") administer it to other people. Those who administer it do so under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:5-16) and thus work together as "one" under the Spirit of God and in that sense alone does the Holy Spirit administer water baptism to people (1 Cor. 12:12-13, 27). This is how members are added to the local congregational body of Christ (Acts 2:41; 1 Cor. 12:12-13,27).
However, there is no such thing as universal invisible body of Christ and such an application in the sense of salvation is false. The batism in the Spirit occurred prior to Pentecost and yet before Pentecost it had no personal application but rather was the immersion of material buildings as the "house of God" as I pointed out in the previous post.
Regeneration has always been the work of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost (e.g. John 3:3-6) and it is regeneration that obtains spiritual union with God or eternal life (Acts 10:43; Jn. 3:16, 36; 5:24; etc.) while justification obtains POSITIONAL union or Christ in your place and you in his place before God which Abraham experienced (Rom. 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6-8).
The Holy Spirit coming upon persons is found in both Testaments and in the book of Acts and refers to the manifestation of power by the Spirit. Those the Spirit came upon in the Old Testament were not all saved people (e.g. Cyrus) and not all were saved people in the New Testament (e.g. the high Priest).
the Holy spirit came upon those in the OT Covenant, but did NOT seal and indwell them as He does now under the new!
Also, the Church of Christ is the Body/Bride of jesus, and that would comprise of ALL saved since Jesus time until now! Both the dead and living in Christ in that group!
Family of God would be those saved since time of Adam and Eve, under all dispensations/covenants!
There is not one iota of difference between the work of the Spirit in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. People have the same problem and there is the same solution. They were sealed by the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Holy Spirit or they are not of his (Rom. 8:8-9).
There is no Church in the Old Testament as its foundation was laid by Christ using apostles and Propehts (Eph. 2:8) and apostles were set in the church first (1 Cor. 12:28).
Perhaps I may clear up the confusion for some of you ...
Baptism into the church (salvation) --- the Holy Spirit is the baptiser
This does NOT refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent
in the churches, i.e. merely an intellectual belief or conversion of one’s thinking.
But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11;
1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 1 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit (mostly power for ministry) --- Jesus is the baptiser
John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
… Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after being born again (or at the same time).
7 verses say that for this baptism the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer, for example:
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered
the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall
be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16)
The 14 Scripture PASSAGES below explain what this baptism is all about.
And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart,
and realize that all the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.
1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6
------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with HS ------Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with HS ---------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received HS ----------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
saint under the new Covevnat have new natures, indwelling Holy spirit, personal relationship with God, high priest interceding for them, etc...
Things that ONLY were provoded for us under the New Covenant!