Do you REALLY understand 1 John 2:2?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by TCassidy, Apr 20, 2005.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Many anti-Calvinists look to 1 John 2:2 to disprove the Calvinist assertion that Christ atoned only for the elect. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    But is John saying that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all men everywhere without distinction, or is he using the same language he and other NT writes used to indicate that God saves the Jews and the Gentiles?

    Look at how John uses the term "whole earth" in Revelation 13:3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Does John mean that every individual in the world followed the beast (see v. 8)? And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. No? What, then, does he mean (see verse 7)? . . . all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Likewise, we read in Revelation 12:9 that Satan deceives the whole world. Again, this clearly doesn't mean every individual in the world because two verses later we read that the saints of God have overcome Satan. Thus, whole world here must mean something other than all people everywhere without exception.

    Now look at Romans 1:8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Did everybody in the whole world, without exception, know the members of the church at Rome and did all people everywhere, without exception, talk about their faith? No? Then the term whole world must also have a meaning other than all people everywhere without exception.

    Now look at what John wrote in John 11:51-52, And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    Compare that to what John is saying in 1 John 2:2 (remember the same man wrote both of them and will use the same type of language to describe the same thing) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    John is saying that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (the nation of Israel) and also for the sins of the whole world (the children of God that were scattered abroad).

    Remember, no scripture is of private interpretation but must be compared with all other scriptures dealing with the same subject. When we compare scripture with scripture we see John using the same thought in both verses to describe propitiation not being just for the nation of Israel but for the children of God scattered all over the world.
     
  2. icthus

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    Cassidy, I have dealt with this verse elsewhere. Even one of your own, who is a greater authority on Calvinism, has plainly said that 1 John 2:2, does NOT refer to the elect. Look at Dr Robert Dabney on this very text, Systematic Theology, p.525. If you don't have access to Dabney, I would be glad to post his exact words here.

    One point I will mention here. This phrase, "the whole world" is used twice by John in this Epistle. Here in 2:2, and also in 5:19, where he says: "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness". Does this also refer to "the elect". Further, the Greek Lexicons of Ardnt and Gingrich, Thayer, Robinson, Abbot-Smith, Kittle, Cremer, Parkhurst, all say that "kosmos" at this place means "the human race, or mankind". Are all of these Greek authorities wrong? Do you set yourself up as a higher authority on Greek than these men?

    Come on Cassidy, lets play it fair.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    So are you arguing that 5:190 says that the whole human race (all men without exception) lies in the power of the wicked one?
     
  4. TCassidy

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    LOL! :D :D :D He really shot himself in the foot that time, didn't he! :D :D :D
     
  5. icthus

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    No, "the whole world" as contrasted with the "we", both of which makes up the "human race". Like "our" in 2:2, is contrasted with "whole world". "We Christians", and "the rest of mankind". I think that it was you who shot yourself in the foot, because this meaning destroys the Calvinistic twist that "whole world" refers to "Jewish believers"
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    So you are saying that "the whole world" doesn't actually mean all men with exception? It really just means a part of the human race?

    I am just trying to be clear about what you believe.

    BTW, I don't think Calvinists of any stripe argue that "the whole world" refers to "Jewish believers." They usually believe it refers to Gentile believers, in contrast to "we," the Jewish believers.
     
  7. icthus

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    BTW, I don't think Calvinists of any stripe argue that "the whole world" refers to "Jewish believers." They usually believe it refers to Gentile believers, in contrast to "we," the Jewish believers.

    Yes, I realised this after I posted it.

    Yes, I will take back that the "whole world" refers to "everyone without exception", as in this case it cannot be true. Nonethelsess, we still have "believers" contrasted with "the rest of mankind", who are "in the power of the evil one"

    Thanks for pointing this out, Larry
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    1 John 2:2 IS NOT A STAND-ALONE SOUND BYTE OF SCRIPTURE, it is part of this larger PRINCIPLE.

    He is the sacrifice to expiate . . . does not mean some future activity. It means that Jesus is the one who expiated (atoned for) our sins, but not ours alone, but the whole world's sins . . . All at one time, one event in the space time continuum, atoned (expiated) ALL Sin past, present and future.

    Thus it is that sin is not a factor in our salvation! The most vile of sinners can through hearing the word unto faith, faith in God, followed up by repentance, have everlasting life.
     
  9. webdog

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    quote:
    -------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    So are you arging that 5:19 says that the whole human race (all men without exception) lies in the power of the wicked one?
    ------------------------------------------------

    The NKJV uses the phrase "...under the sway of the wicked one". Does satan have domain of earth? Do we sin? The answer then is yes, the whole world without exception.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Webdog, The Bible is clear that believers are not under the power of the evil one. We have been freed from that. 5:19 refers to unbelievers, not all men without exception.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Larry,
    You are neglecting Jesus words, 'to wit', "live in the world but be not of the world". so 5:19 could very well be addressing ALL MANKIND!
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    "Living in the world but not of the world" is not the same as "under the power of the evil one." If believers are under the power of the evil one, then God was wrong to say that we weren't under his power, that we were free from it.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    You are correct, and I agree!

    The evil one is the prince of the powers of the air on this earth. Believers are subject to the influences of evil on this earth but they are not the subjects of the evil one.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    "IN this world you have trouble - take courage I have overcome the World" John 14.

    "Resist the devil and he will flee from you" James 4.

    "We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers..." Eph 6.

    YES - we are IN a world where Satan is "the prince of the power of the air" and is declared to be "The god of this world".

    And so -- we press on. We walk by faith not by sight. Released from slavery to satan as we are told in Eph 2 - but not free from the effects of evil.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    In 1John 4 God sent "His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD".

    In John 3 "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave.."

    In John 1 God sent HIS SON INTO THE WORLD after first MAKING the WORLD through Christ.

    IN 1John 2 "HE is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD".

    In 1Tim 4:10
    10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    The EMPHASIS contrasts the saints the saved with the UNSAVED WORLD. So instead of "wondering" if Christ ALSO died for the UNSAVED WORLD or just the elect - the authors are EXPLICITLY speaking of BOTH groups for all of time.

    How "instructive".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    oops! I used the correct translation for Hilasmos in my quote of 1John 2:2 and I am sure someone will want to know why I use what the NIV used.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Quoting that to show that like the use of Hilasmos in Lev 16 and Ezek 44 as "sin offering" - I would be happy with EITHER "Atoning Sacrifice" OR "Sin offering" in 1John 2:2.

    Take your pick.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    It emphasizes "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" rather than

    "Christ SO SACRIFICED that GOD finally agreed to LOVE us "

    Or "Christ so sacrificed that GOD finally agreed to LIKE us"...
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Cassidy;
    Who else is there besides Jews and Gentiles?
    Wondering is a long way from following.
    The all in this verse is clearly limited by the latter part of that verse. However if there is no limitation implied then we can't add our own.

    One has to be aware that the Revelations is not all prophecy, but is about the past, present, and future.
    You are only assuming that there faith wasn't spoken of through out the whole world. Which very obviously is contradictory to scripture.
    No where does this verse say that He didn't die for the whole world but says he didn't just die for one nation.
    I understand it perfectly to mean that Christ Died for the whole world. I'm really puzzled how you can argue against something that so clearly refutes your position. If Christ hadn't died for the whole world then you'd be lost.
    I agree scripture isn't of a priviate interpretation. Which is why your interpretation doesn't stand.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. TCassidy

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    Well now we have established that ILUVLIGHT doesn't know what an appositive is.
    And now we have established that ILUVLIGHT doesn't know what "wondering" means.
    And now we have established that ILUVLIGHT doesn't know what "comparing scripture with scripture" means.

    And now we have established that ILUVLIGHT can't discuss the issue so he changes the subject.
    Now we have established that ILUVLIGHT doesn't know what hyperbole is and can't recognize it when he sees it.
    And now we have established that ILUVLIGHT can't (or won't) see the obvious parallel.

    And now we have established that ILUVLIGHT can't follow simple logic.
    And again we have established that ILUVLIGHT can't deal with what the scriptures say so he just says "you're wrong" and expects that to be the final word on the matter. Pope ILUVLIGHT. LOL! (Not to mention that we have established the ILUVLIGHT can't spell "private." :D :D )
     
  20. Frogman

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    TC, please refrain from referencing to members through any insinuating language or implied characteristics such as name calling.

    The volatility of the C/A forum, unfortunately, prohibits even the slightest degree of humor.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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