Do you take this literally in Haggai???

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Greektim, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    I think if you don't interpret Haggai christologically, you have a hard time making much sense of the book. Specifically, I am referring to 2 places:

    1) Hag 2:9 and the latter glory of this house being better than Solomon's temple (cf. Ezra 3:12ff)

    2) Hag 2:21-23 and Zerubbabel being used to shake the nations and conquer kingdoms w/ the new signet ring (cf. Jeremiah 22:24)

    How do you interpret these "literally" and not messianically/figurally about Jesus?
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    273
    Agree! IMO, that's true for the rest of The Book.

    Herod's temple was built upon this one's foundation, and Christ visited that temple while in the flesh, so in that sense this prophecy was LITERALLY fulfilled, imo.

    .....but, I believe the grander fulfillment/intent of this passage lies in the temple that the Branch was to build (Zech 6:12-15) because of the use of the sixth verse in Heb 12:26.

    Addressed to Christ through His ancestor, Zerubbabel [Mt 1:12,13]. Also compare to Heb 12:26,27, again.
     
  3. thomas15

    thomas15
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    0
    With 1 second on the clock and the crowd on their feet, he shoots! he scores! His adoring fans shower him with $10s and $20s and an occasional $50.

    Team P takes another championship to the theological hall of fame! Corporate sponsors line up but not before team P visits Disney World!
     
  4. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    Thanks for the added insight here. Truly helpful :BangHead:
     
  5. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    Grammatically, that doesn't work. It is presented as if the present temple (or whatever we call it) during the time of Haggai and shortly after was going to be better. Now in prophetic language, the grammar can say one thing but indicate another. I just wonder if simply Jesus presence there was being indicated or even more that Jesus is the greater temple himself which he then makes the church into the temple of God. This eventually ends up being consummated in the new Jerusalem.

    Lastly, I agree that this is very messianic. I just hope a literalist will try to explain how this is fulfilled w/ Zerbbabel.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    273
    FYI, FWIW, the temple that Herod built wasn't considered to be a 'third temple', but a renovation of the second; thus the significance of Mt 12:6 & 26:55.
     
  7. thomas15

    thomas15
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good info. from wikipedia. Comes at a bad time though, my brain is at near capacity today. Throw out just one more choice nugget of wisedom and BAM!!!
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    273
    "Though Zerubbabel's temple was taken down to the foundations when Herod rebuilt the temple, the latter was considered, in a religious point of view, as not a third temple, but virtually the second temple." JFB Commentary
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying here that IF one intepretes the scriptures in a literal sense as I do means that one cannot use figures of speech, genre etc?

    AS there are times when the best rendering/meaning would be in a "spiritual" sense, IF fits into genre/intended meaning /context how NT interpreted OT etc!
     
  10. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    I am saying that you are picking and choosing when it is appropriate or not making you the arbiter of truth. If your rule of thumb can not be consistently applied, then it is not worth its weight in study.
     
  11. thomas15

    thomas15
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    0
    And that is why, of course, Greektim and the rest of the reformed replacement crowd are in total agreement on all things end times!
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    273
    Comments from Gill on v 23:

    "....the application of this and such like prophecies to the Messiah, who may be called Zerubbabel, as he is sometimes David, because he sprung from him, was of his lineage, and because he [Zerubbabel] was a type of him, in bringing the people of the Jews out of the Babylonish captivity, in rebuilding the temple, in the government of the people, and in being chosen of God, and precious; as well as a servant of the Lord, as here expressed, and which is often mentioned as a character of the Messiah, Isa 49:3:"

    ***

    In Isa 49:3 Christ is called by the name of Israel:

    1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye peoples, from far: Jehovah hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name:
    2 and he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me: and he hath made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he kept me close:
    3 and he said unto me, Thou art my servant; Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
    4 But I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and vanity; yet surely the justice due to me is with Jehovah, and my recompense with my God.
    5 And now saith Jehovah that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, and that Israel be gathered unto him (for I am honorable in the eyes of Jehovah, and my God is become my strength);
    6 yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa 49
     
    #12 kyredneck, Oct 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2011
  13. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    Instead of giving your one line snide remarks, how about offering a reason why I should interpret literally (or however you see it)?

    BTW... I don't hold a replacement theology. I believe Israel continues today, just redefined.
     

Share This Page

Loading...