Do you think all people which never heard about Jesus automatically go to hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. xdisciplex

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    In our times due to the media and the high technology christian can even reach huge numbers people in Africa and other countries but what about 1000 years ago? What about those which lived in countries or continents where nobody had every come to preach about Jesus? Does this mean that millions of people went to hell without having had a chance?
    How do you explain this to an unbeliever? I'm afraid he'll simply say that this isn't fair and that such a God is evil. :confused:
     
  2. Martin

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    ==People who have never heard the Gospel, most likely, perish in hell. The whole reason we are to "preach the Gospel" to all nations is so that they can avoid that fate and be saved. If ignorance equaled salvation then I doubt we would be commanded to preach the Gospel. Don't you?

    ==First I would say that you should not let yourself get side tracked into issues like this. Unbelievers will try to side track believers, who are witnessing to them, in an attempt to justify their unbelief and/or to change the subject. Second, since it seems you may already have allowed yourself to be side tracked, you should point out that all men are sinners and therefore all men deserve hell (Rom 3:23,6:23). God would be fair in sending all men/women to hell with no offer of salvation. However out of His grace He has provided a way of salvation. However it is up to us to preach that message.
     
  3. xdisciplex

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    But such an argument would only push the people away. They would think that God is totally cruel and he allowed hundreds of millions to simply go to hell without any chance to be saved!
    This is really a terrible thought. Nobody could even be saved on his own. Imagine you had lived 1000 years ago and now you're in hell and you had no chance at all to get saved would you still say that it's okay?
     
  4. Martin

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    ==Sometimes the truth will, by its very nature, push people away (1Cor 1:23-25, Jn 6:59-66). However the truth cannot be compromised.

    ==People enter hell because they deserve it! God is under no obligation to save anyone. In fact He would be perfectly JUST to allow the whole world to perish. However in His grace He elects to save some (those who come to Him). God is not "cruel" for punishing those who have sinned against Him.


    ==Since I am a sinner and deserve hell it would be just for me to enter hell. That is what I, as a sinner, deserve. However I heard the Gospel and, by God's grace, I responded. Those who reject the Gospel, or never hear, remain in their sin and guilt. They enter hell because they are guilty sinners who deserve hell. Nobody in hell is blaming God, they are blaming themselves (Lk 16:23-31).
     
  5. BobRyan

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    No. (I think we already went through this - yes?)

    See Rom 2:13-16 and Rom 10.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Several avenues to take here.

    You could question his idea of fairness and where he gets it from.

    You could question his idea of evil and where he gets it from.

    You could question whether or not he really wants God to be fair. If God is fair, we all go to hell. It was manifestly unfair for God to kill Jesus for sin that Jesus did not commit. It is manifestly unfair for God to give me salvation because of what Jesus did.

    So the reality is that "fairness" is not something we really want when it comes to God. Secondly, apart from God we have no notion of what evil actually is. Thirdly, people who do not hear of Jesus are still sinners, and sin is why people go to hell.
     
  7. Dustin

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    Short answer: Yes.



    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
  8. xdisciplex

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    Wait a minute!

    We all were born with a sin nature being lost and separated from God!
    If God simply sent us all to hell none of us would have had a chance to get saved and you say this is fair? Do you REALLY believe this or are you guys just saying this because you think this is what God wants to hear from you?
    I don't even know if God would say that this is fair but christians say it and make God look bad.

    Or let's say you say that if we had had a chance and had been like Adam then we would still have sinned because we are all evil. But there is a problem. If all humans are evil then you could as well say God made a mistake and created them this way with a potential error and this would mean that we are punished for God's mistake.
    You see, it's not that easy at all. One thing which I don't like is easy answers. Do you think that the regular person out there accepts such an answer? Of course not!
     
  9. BobRyan

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    The answer is "no" as we see in Romans 2:13-16 and Romans 10. The work of God is for "the Whole World" for he is "not willing for ANY to perish".

    John 1 - Christ is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN.

    ALL must respond to the influence of Christ and of His Holy Spirit - either acceping or rejecting.

    Romans 10 argues that nature itself conveys that message just as Romans 1 argues that nature itself "leaves them without excuse".
     
  10. webdog

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    The OP is contructed on pure assumption that it is a known fact there are those who have never heard. Cannot be proven scripturally, and is nothing but speculation and assumption. Any answers to the OP can therefore only be pure speculation, as only the deceased person and God would be the only two privileged with such information.
     
  11. Martin

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    ==Let's deal with Scripture and not vain human reasoning, ok?

    The Bible is clear that God warned Adam that if he disobeyed Him, by eating the forbidden fruit, he would die (Gen 2:15-17). God also warned that "the soul who sins will die" (Ez 18:4,20). Paul warns that the "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) and that "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23). Since "all" have sinned, and all souls that sin must die, then all are worthy of death (Rom 1:32). That death is physical but it is also spiritual death (Rev 21:8). Therefore it is true that all people deserve hell (spiritual death) because all people have sinned. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

    Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty of sin for those who believe in Him. However those who don't believe in Him remain in their sin (Jn 8:24). It does not matter "why" they don't believe. If a person does not believe they are lost. That is why we must obey Christ and preach the Gospel (Matt 28:16-20, Lk 24:44-47). People must hear the Gospel so they can believe it and be saved (Eph 1:13, Rom 10:14-15).

    Why did the Apostles, Paul included, suffer the way they did? Because they knew that it is only by Jesus Christ a person can be saved and that apart from Him nobody could be saved (Acts 4:12). If ignorance equaled salvation then surely the need to spread/preach the Gospel would not be urgent. In fact if ignorance equaled salvation then there would be a need not to preach the Gospel. However ignorance does not equal salvation. Therefore we must preach the Good News (the Gospel) to all nations.


    ==It is Scripture that teaches that only God is good (Matt 19:17) and that all people are evil (Matt 7:11, Rom 3:9-20). Scripture goes so far as to declare that the unsaved person is dead in sin, is walking according to the prince of the air, is a son of disobedience, is living in the lusts of the flesh, is by nature a child of wrath, can do nothing to please God, and is unfit for any good work (see Eph 2:1-3, Rom 8:5-8, Titus 1:16). The list could keep right on going. Scripture is very clear that there is no "good" person in God's sight apart from salvation in Jesus Christ. God did not make the mistake, we did and what is worse we continue to.

    ==It does not matter what people say. It only matters what the Bible says. Popular opinion is not our guide to truth, the Bible is and the Bible alone.
     
  12. ktn4eg

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    "If all humans are evil then you could as well say God made a mistake and created them this way with a potential error and this would mean that we are punished for God's mistake." -- xdisciplex

    God did not create us with a sin nature!

    We acquired our sin nature as a result of Adam's deliberate disobedience to a direct command of God.

    "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive," II Corinthians 15:21-22 (KJV) [Note: Emphasis mine]

    Rather than focusing on the speculative or hypothetical, "Let's say" stuff, why not focus on what God's Word actually says?

    Anyone who blames God for creating us either as evil when, in fact, God Himself declared His original creation as "very good" (Gen. 1:31) and/or wants to blame God for his/her sin nature is woefully ignorant of the plain teaching of God's Word!

    As others have already posted, God doesn't owe us a thing.

    If this person with whom you are debating truly believes that somehow God owes us His gracious pardon from the penality of our sins, why don't you simply ask that person to show you exactly where in God's Word it actually says so?

    If the President or a governor of a state should happen to pardon one person for a crime that he/she committed, does that mean that he therefore is automatically obligated to pardon every single criminal that may be under his juristiction?

    I don't think so.
     
    #12 ktn4eg, Apr 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2007
  13. xdisciplex

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    Oh boy, you know what your "easy answers" are sickening!

    As long as you have heard about Jesus you're fine but what about those which have never heard about him? And saying that it's just an assumption that some have never heard about him is beyond silly, I don't even know what to say in reply to this. This is simply absolutely ridiculous. :BangHead:

    @ Bob

    Nature shows that there is a creator. Okay.
    But nature does not reveal us who this creator is. What about those which worship other gods and think that a god called XYZ created the earth and his wife is the goddess ABC and they worship them both and think they created the earth then they are still going to hell!
    Nature does NOT point to Christ! Even if a tribe somewhere at the end of the world realizes that there has to be a god they still dont know who he is!

    Man, this upsets me. I am asking serious questions and you guys take this all so easy and came up with your totally easy replies which are simply cold and harsh.
     
  14. Martin

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    ==The answers that have been given have come directly from Scripture. Clearly your problem is that you are having a hard to accepting the Scriptural teachings. Let me ask you a question: If ignorance of the Gospel equaled salvation then why are we commanded to take the Gospel to all nations? Please answer that question directly in your next reply.

    ==If a person has heard of Jesus, and rejected Him, their situation is worse than those who have never heard (Heb 10:26-31). However those who have never heard remain in their sin.

    ==Actually my replies come directly from Scripture. There are no "easy" answers to this question, you are correct. However the answers to this question are "clear". Easy? No. Clear? Yes. We have to allow Scripture to speak for its self.

    I think your problem, here, is that you don't like what Scripture says on this issue. Scripture is truth and it must be the Christians guide to life (etc).
     
  15. xdisciplex

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    Are you saying that if a person gets saved or not depends on humans because if we mess it up and do not make it to preach the gospel to everybody then those will go to hell?
    Boy, then I think you should better hurry because millions are dying and what are you doing!? You are sitting at home in front of your computer instead of being on the streets and warning the people to repent.
     
  16. Martin

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    ==You did not address my question: If ignorance of the Gospel equaled salvation then why are we commanded to take the Gospel to all nations? Please answer. As to your comments here, God has commanded us to preach the Gospel. It is through the preaching of the Gospel message that He draws people to Himself (Eph 1:13, Matt 28:18-20, Lk 24:46-48). Now, please, answer the question I presented to you.
     
  17. webdog

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    Like I said earlier...can you prove there are those who have never heard? I'm not talking about using logic, equations, chances, or odds...I'm talking about concrete proof. If there is none, this entire thread is useless.
     
  18. Hope of Glory

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    Webdog, without taking a side on this issue for reasons that I may or may not choose to divulge later, there are languages that don't even have a word or concept for "higher authority", much less for the concept of God.

    But, all men are born with the idea of God.

    But, it is logically impossible to prove a negative. You cannot logically prove that there are those who have never heard, but you can get a preponderance of the evidence.

    That being said, don't forget that Jesus is in the Koran, and the Messianic Muslim movement, while still small, is on the increase.

    Oh, I also know a native whose traditional stories tell about Jesus. Not by the name "Jesus", but many in his tribe have been saved because they find out that they're not simply fairytale stories within their tribe.
     
  19. webdog

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    I'm not following. Are you saying there has to be a language in order for the Gopel to be shared? Kind of limiting the power of God, no? The Gospel in the stars is a perfect example of the spread of the Gospel without any language. Every human being on earth is privileged with being able to see the stars.
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Having an influence via the Holy Spirit and hearing the gospel message is two completely different issues. There is not one solitary Scripture that states or indicates that all have or all will have the opportunity to hear the gospel. Reason, logic, and experience tell us that indeed all have not heard and all most likely will not hear. Because Scripture does not indicate either way specifically, does not mean we have to shut every avenue of reason God gives to man to arrive at a truthful conclusion. Romans tell us clearly that God shows mercy on those that He wills. If that is not a clear indication that not only God is under no obligation to give the gospel to any man, and that indeed He in His wisdom for reasons known only to Himself, has allowed others to remain hardened, someone is allowing their presuppositions to cloud their reasoning abilities.

    Yes all men that sin are without excuse. Not because they did not have an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, but because they failed to live according to the light of their conscience, sinned, and became guilty before God. They are without excuse for their willful transgression against their own conscience enlightened by the Holy Spirit through various means, including nature.
     

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