Do you think there is chance?

It is you twisting scripture. How many men does Jesus say he will draw in John 12:32?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If Jesus draws all men to himself, which he clearly said he would do, then all men can come. All have been enabled.

Does John 5:40 say men cannot come, or does it say they will not come?

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus did say that no man can come to him unless drawn, but he also says he will draw all men. Therefore all could come, but some "will not" come.

This is all very simple and a child could understand it. All men are drawn and therefore all can come. The reason they do not come is they are not willing. You do not believe unregenerate man can truly make a free choice. Oh, you will say they have free will, and in the same breath say they are enslaved by their nature which is an illogical contradiction. If they are utterly enslaved by their nature then they do not truly have free will.

But the scriptures clearly say men have true free will.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

It doesn't get any clearer than Leviticus 1:3, God says men have their "own voluntary will". But you would rather believe the false teaching of Augustine and Calvin.

I could list you half a dozen verses showing unregenerate man has the ability to choose God or reject God. Unregenerate man is not utterly enslaved to his own will, man can truly make choices.

In John 5:40 Jesus said men "will not" come to him, he did not say they "could not". You read your presuppositions into this verse.

And John 5:40 proves that even those who do come were not regenerated, because they had to come to have life. But again, you will ignore plain scripture that a child could understand to hold to a man-made doctrine.

 

"I returned and saw under the sun that- The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all."- Ecclesiastes 9:11 NKJV

 

You are correct about me here. I was taught that man fell in the garden and that the sin nature was handed down to each of us through Adam. I believed this for many years.

However, I could never find this in the scriptures, in fact, I found the opposite. I found that man is always held responsible for his actions in the scriptures. If man cannot possibly do anything good, then man cannot be held responsible for his actions.

In another post, you and other posters said that you hold traditional beliefs held by the church for many years. That is not so. Until Augustine came along, most of the early church fathers believed unregenerate man had the ability to do both good and evil, and could truly make a choice between the two. For instance, here is what Iranaeus believed:

Continued in next post due to length.

 

Continued from previous post.

So, you see (if you read carefully) that what I believe is not unorthodox at all, and is what many early church fathers believed (I can quote many other church fathers before Augustine if you like).

God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the forbidden fruit, and that is exactly what happened. They were separated from God and hid themselves. They were spiritually dead, but physically alive.

Now why did they hide? I believe they hid because they believed God would kill them physically. Afterall, God had promised they would die "in that day" if they sinned.

But when God called them, they both came to God. They were sinners, they were lost, they were unregenerate, yet they came when God called them. This is trust. This proves that unregenerate man can come to God if God calls to them.

And when they came to God he did not kill them physically. Yes, he cursed women in childbearing, and cursed the ground so that man would have to labor and toil to survive. But there is not one word concerning man's nature. God did not kill them physically that day, in fact he forgave their sin. He killed an innocent animal and clothed them with the skin. This is a picture of Christ who died for us, and his righteousness that is imputed to us when we believe or trust on him.

What I believe is not unorthodox at all, the majority of early church fathers believed man retained free will. It was only after 400 A.D. and Augustine that the idea of Total Depravity or inability became popular.

 

zrs,
I believe that men and angels interact with each other and creation in true libertarian freedom, for better or worse. God's choices sometimes supersede ours, but for the most part we are free to make our own choices. In other words, there is no blueprint. God is sovereign, in that this is His choice to create a world and beings that operate in this fashion.

 

Indeed, the KJV uses the word "chance" 5 or 6 times I recall. It may be that it is being used merely as a colloquialism ('informal expression').

However, I don't believe in randomness (chance or luck). Scientifically, there does not seem to be such a phenomena. Some events are so complex that our mind cannot calculate the results fast enough so that we say that those events are uncertain or unpredicable. But in fact, they are certain (physics). The flip of a coin for example: if you start with the coin in the same position, and flip it with the same force and angle each time (in other words, eliminate uncontrolled variables producing the same number of rotations) you would get the same result each and every time. The average human cannot control their hands precisely enough to eliminate slight variations and thus it only seems that we get different (and unpatterned) results from the 'same' filpping action. Even computers cannot truly generate numbers at random. There are explanations for every action (ask NASA), it is just that many ordinary events are either complex beyond a complete quantification or it is simply not worth the effort.

Perhaps a demon does pinch a baby to make it cry at the most inopportune moment. But just because I cannot calculate all the reasons does not make the vent a chance happening.

 

How is Ecclesiastes 9:11 taken out of context?


If I pull into an over crowded parking lot in Wal-Mart and I happen to find an open parking spot right at the front was it ordained of God for me to have that spot? Or was it a matter of randomness? Doesn't the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike? Isn't that randomness? Does it in any way make God less sovereign?

 

This verse has precisely the opposite meaning as you attempt to give it. Your interpretation seems to be that "the swift" may not win the race due to some random chance event or that "the strong" may lose the battle because of an unlucky circumstance. However, what this verse is really teaching is that humans ought not to trust in their own strength; Solomon is telling us that reason alone cannot assure the outcome. Reasonably, young David should not have been able to defeat the combat superior Goliath; but David prevailed. (Was that luck? No!) David rightly gave God the credit (1 Samuel 17:46). Ecclesiastes 9:11 teaches that God is in control of all events. Matthew Henry writes --

2. He resolves all these disappointments into an over-ruling power and providence, the disposals of which to us seem casual, and we call them chance, but really they are according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, here called time, in the language of this book, ch. 3:1; Ps. 31:15. Time and chance happen to them all. A sovereign Providence breaks men’s measures, and blasts their hopes, and teaches them that the way of man is not in himself, but subject to the divine will. We must use means, but not trust to them; if we succeed, we must give God the praise (Ps. 44:3); if we be crossed, we must acquiesce in his will and take our lot. ​

Look at Ecclesiates 3:14,15 (KJV) --

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.​

Clearly, everything God has decided to do is certain to come to pass; what has been foreordained by God cannot be changed.

No, finding the parking space is not random. God put it there at that time. Perhaps that you could kindly let someone else take it; or perhaps so that you would be in the checkout line at the divinly appointed time to witness to some partculiar person. We won't know why.

No, the falling of the rain is not random but it is indescriminate. God has chosen to opperate in this manner; it is a form of His grace and mercy. Some of those lost people may accept Him at a later time. David even complained that evil men seem to prosper greater than righteous men in this life.

Yes (and it would either make God not omnipotent or not omniscient).

 

So if God chose to allow randomness in His creation that would make God less sovereign? Can't say that I agree with that. And my "interpretation" was not an interpretation at all but a reading of the text. Your quote of Matthew Henry is an interpetation. I completely agree that God is ultimately in control of all things. However, God also gave man free will and that allows for certain degrees of randomness which Scripture seems to bear out. It is always interesting to me that some people must find a way to make Scripture fit their notions of the truth rather than letting Scripture speak for itself. If everything is divinely appointed by God then you open up issues such as God being the author of sin which I am not prepared to do. I don't see how random events occuring in our world make God less sovereign if He chose to create this world in that manner.

 

Indiscriminate means random by the way. :thumbsup: Which not a single rain drop could be if God is exercising absolute control over all things.

 

zrs
I believe many things happen outside of God's will or desire, but not beyond limits He sets. If He admonishes you not to do something and you do it anyway then it is against His will or He does not mean what He says. If someone believes that disobedience is according to God's will, I think they should question their interpretation of God's will and reconsider. Why would He prohibit that which He desires? Furthermore, if He determines men's actions, the same question is valid. Why would He ever express regret?

 

Ten to four they do believe in luck. My signature addresses this question. The Lord certainly controls the events that He needs to carry out His purposes. A lot has been said about the every day decisions we make that seem to have no consequence, like, am I going to order a coke or 7up? However, He knows the number of hairs on our head. ( He does not have to count to high for me.) That strongly suggests to me He is either involved in or knows every decision from the greatest to the least.