Does all mean all?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Jun 11, 2006.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    O.K. here's an old debate but I dont' know if I've ever heard it opened this way:

    There are some of you that hang tenaciously on to the old cliche "all means all, and that's all there is to it!"

    So if all means all, is this verse true?

    And is this verse also true?

    If all always means all, how can they both be true? If (1) God works all things after the counsel of his own will; and (2) God would have all men to be saved; then (3) salvation is universal. Yes? No?

    Please try to answer the question or resolve the (seeming) contradiction without using the word "mystery".
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    may I add...

    well, all I can say is get ready for the 'yes, buuutttt's", J.D.
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Seems to me the inheritance is what was predestinated and He will have the final say on all things and it will be according to His counsel to which reward we receive both good and bad.
    I take the Scripture to be saying He willeth all men to be saved. The same as saying it is not His will that any should perish.

    I am sure it is not what you want to hear but its my understanding of the two Scriptures.
     
  4. J.D.

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    Hello BroBob and thank you for that reply. You stated you case very well. However, when you said "He will have the final say on all things", I wonder what about the first and middle say on all things? Does God just have the final say? Isn't that a re-defining of the word all? Aren't you saying that all does not mean all in that verse? Did God work the writing of this post after the cousel of his own will, or did it happen by chance? If this post is not written after the counsel of his own will, then all can not mean all in that verse, true?
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    Hi J D;
    Well, it says that it is His will that all men come to repentance and not His will that any should perish, but there will be many who shall perish even though its not His will but after all is said and done He will have the final say about that person. So in the end He will have His say. In the beginning He also had the say for I give you your breath and you live, in the end I take your breath and you die. In the middle. The creature was made subject to vanity but not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope. So we see He even give the choice of the middle of good or evil by making us subject to vanity. It was Him all the way for even though some may not choose to serve Him, it is He who gave that choice. So it seems to me He had the say all the way through. We didn’t reach out and grab a choice, He gave it to us which is all of us.
     
  6. Pipedude

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    "All" seldom means "each and every." Even I can see that, and I'm an Arminian.

    Yet, there's bound to be some word that means "each and every." And that word is "all."

    So how can you know which is which? Simple! You find a commentary that agrees with your crowd, and follow its choices.

    An even simpler way would be to just email me with the verse in question, and I'll tell you.

    By the way, I treat all customers fairly. It's not that I have five billion customers. It just means that the ones I treat, I treat fairly.

    All the things that God works, he works after the counsel of his own will.

    But all of this discussion is like a dog chasing its tail. We believe what we want to believe.

    Or, for you supralapsarians, we believe whatever God decided we should believe.
     
  7. Scott J

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    No. It says this in the context of the word "usward". The context of 2 Peter 3 qualifies what "all" means there... it is not "all" as in each and every person but "all" as in all of the "us" of "usward."
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    Ok, then "all" of usward men, which would mean "all" men.:thumbs:
     
  9. J.D.

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    Hello Pipedude, I appreciate the thoughtful comments you bring to the conversation.

    I think most of the real tail-chasing is done by folks that are too invested in the status quo to take time to think about things. Now let's think about this:

    1. You said that "'All' seldom means 'each and every.'" (emphasis mine). I couldn't agree more.
    2. Would you agree then that in the verses cited that both all's can not mean "each and every"? Good, then
    3. How can we determine which all does not mean each and every, and which one does mean each and every?
    4. Here's a way: Let's ask ourselves two questions

    (A) Given the premise that God will have all men to be saved, are all men therefore saved?"

    (B) Given the premise that God works all things after the counsel of his own will, what things are there that God has not willed?

    Does all mean all in (A), (B), neither, or both?
     
  10. npetreley

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    Except that, in the context of that verse, to us-ward refers to the intended recipients of the letter, whom Peter calls the elect and beloved. That isn't all men without exception.
     
  11. psalms109:31

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    saved

    God does desire that all men be saved.

    By His will He only predestined whosoever believes to be saved.

    This faith we have in Jesus , without deeds is dead.

    How can we see what Jesus has done for us and not show the world this love.

    He first loved us, because He died for us and does not count our sins againstus.

    Whosoever believes by His own words He predestined them to be saved.

    God is no respector of person. The same hope He gave you, the world has, and we who believe oare messengers of this hope.
     
  12. J.D.

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    Psalm109, that's some nice sentiments. But the question is, does all mean all? For example, if all things are worked by the counsel of God's own will, does that mean all things or some things?
     
  13. epistemaniac

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    hey guys... I thought I would toss this in re Eph. 1... hope it helps to try and work through the "all" in this passage....

    "While many verses teach these things about the divine plan (see especially Ps. 115:3; Job 42:2; and Daniel 4:35 for the all inclusiveness of God’s plan), I suggest that Eph. 1:11 is especially compelling. Paul writes `also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works out all things after the counsel of His will.’ This is part of Paul’s description of the blessings we have in Christ because of our salvation. It speaks of our inheritance as believers, an inheritance that is ours because God predestined us to salvation. So, the general theme of the section and of the verse in particular is our salvation. The phrase `who works …. will’ is a relative clause which modifies `His’. The relative clause is part of a participle clause (`having been predestined …. His will) that modifies the main verb `obtained’. So the initial focus of the verse is that in Christ, believers have received an inheritance. The rest of the verse amplifies and explains how this has happened. It has happened because we were predestined according to God’s purpose. Moreover, the one who predestined us also works all things after the counsel of His will.
    Unless there is a distinction in this verse between purpose, counsel, and will of God, it is tremendously redundant. Commentators suggest that the different terms are not identical in this passage. `Purpose’ (prothesin) refers to the goal God intends to accomplish; it is His ultimate design. Paul says that our predestination to salvation was done according to that design or aim. This means that our election wasn’t based on what God foresaw about how we would respond when told the gospel. If Paul had meant that, he could have easily said that. Saying that we were predestined according to God’s purposes suggests that His decision was based solely on His desires, i.e., it was unconditional.
    The next phrase (relative clause) confirms that election was based on God’s design alone. Again Paul could have said that God works all things or even some things (or at least salvation) according to what He foresees about us. Instead, he writes that election fits the purposes of the one who works everything after the counsel of His will. Election is a particular instance of God’s general modus operandi. As to the distinction between `counsel’ (boule) and will (thelema), `counsel’ indicates purpose and deliberation. It can even refer to the plan that springs from such deliberation. On the other hand `will’ simply denotes choosing. The whole participle phrase then teaches that our predestination to salvation was done according to a divine pattern. That pattern is: God has a purpose or goal He wants to accomplish. He deliberates about the best way to reach His goal, and from that deliberative process springs forth a plan (boule) that He deems best. God wills (thelema) that plan, and then brings it to pass (energountos). Nothing in the verse suggests that the purpose, the deliberating, or the choosing of the plan is based on anything other than God. Hence, the verse seems to teach unconditional decision… Two further points about this verse are noteworthy. One is that the focus of the main verb is clearly salvation. Moreover, the participle that begins the participle phrase (`having been predestined’) refers to matters of salvation…. The other point about this verse is that Paul does not say that God has authority and power to predestine us according to His purposes alone, but never exercises it. Nor does Paul say that God as sovereign has the power to work all things according to the counsel of His will, but He chooses to forego using that power. Rather, Eph. 1:3-14 speaks of things that God not only has the right and power to do but actually does.” (No One Like Him, John S. Feinberg, pps 681-682)

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  14. J.D.

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    Hello Ken, what amazes me about arminians is that they believe that God has the right to predestine everything EXCEPT salvation, when the passage at hand clearly shows just the opposite - that is, that if God predetermines anything, it is our salvation which he predetermines.

    How do arminians expect God to control the events of history? How do they think that God predetermined the crucifixion? Did God by some spooky ghost-like presence cause the nails to be driven? Of course not. The fact is God determines the outcome of events precisely by doing the very thing that arminians consider anathema! He changes the hearts and wills of man. He passes over some, others he hardens for His purpose, and praise Him, there is a great multitude on whom he has mercy on and opens their heart to the gospel!
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    sentiment

    We should concider all God's word when we see who all is.

    We want to live on pieces of God's word that we like and reconcile the rest into what we want to believe.

    Since God said that who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth then we should take him at His word.

    We also know that He is only going to save believers in His Son.

    So the all that He is going to be save is believers and that is what all is.

    He has predestined by His word that whosoever believes shall be saved and He also predestined that whosoever does not shall be condemned.

    God desires all men to be saved and I desire that to, but also know that only believers will be saved.

    God worked out a plan to bring Jesus and through Jesus open the door to the world

    I do not see that God predestined any one to believe, but predestined that believers be saved.

    Yes all means all, but only believers in His Son will be saved.
     
  16. Brother Bob

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    If He only was speaking about the saved then why does He judge all. He said if you sow to the flesh ye shall of the flesh reap corruption and that would be after His own will. If you so to the Spirit ye shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting and that too is after His own will. We already know he controls the beginning and end by our breath to live in this world and in the end Heaven or Hell. Now according to the above its after His own will He controls and judges whatever we sow to. The third seal when the black horse and he that sat upon him had a pair of balances. We will reap what we sow according to the will of God. Now it is that sowest but God who shall reap. That is how I see the Scripture.
     
  17. Rippon

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    But many means many , not all

    Here are some snippets :

    Acts 13:48 -- and as many had been destined for eternal life became believers

    Psalm 40:3 -- many will see and fear , and put their trust in the Lord

    Isaiah 53:12 -- he bore the sin of many

    Matthew 22:14 -- For many are called , but few are chosen

    Matthew 26:28 -- for this is my blood of the covenant , which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins .

    Luke 1:16 -- He will turn many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God .

    Hebrews 2:10 -- in bringing many children to glory

    Hebrews 9:28 -- having been offered once to bear the sins of many
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Yea, unfortunately, All will not hear Him (Spiritually), but rather love darkness.
     
  19. Rippon

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    And how can the natural man hear Him unless He intervenes and quickens him ? The natural man has no strength , ability , insight or anything to turn himself to the Lord . The natural person is not only walking in darkness -- but IS darkness .
     
  20. Dale-c

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    SO are you saying that Man is sovereign? In that man ultimatley decides if he goes to heaven or not? And ther is nothing God can do about it?
     

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