does arminianism lead to pragmatism?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. nodak

    nodak
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    15
    I'm reading a book on the doctrines of grace, and the idea is presented that arminianism will always lead eventually to pragmatism.

    The line of thought is that if salvation is synergistic rather than monergistic we logically have to do all we can to get the sinner to cooperate with grace. If we do not, if we somehow present the gospel in a manner than is not attractive to the sinner and that person winds up in hell, it is our fault.

    That puts the burden for the salvation of the lost squarely on the shoulders of the saved rather than Jesus. That heavy, terrifying burden will lead us to do "whatever works" and will finally lead us to think like Finney. By that I mean we will feel that revival can surely be had if we just follow the right methods, rather than it being an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (Revival defined both as stirring up the saved and winning the lost.)

    My initial thought is that Rick Warren claims to be Calvinistic, I think, and yet also seems to be the Finney of today.

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Honestly I think it's a straw man argument.

    Let's use this line of reason on the recent Chilean miners situation. The miners were trapped underground with no way to save themselves. The gov't mapped out the means of rescue, and it included a narrow hole drilled down to rescue them. Now, in order to be rescued the miners had to maintain a certain waist size in order to fit into the rescue pod. This took effort on the part of the miners to eat right, exercise and measure their waists. This effort did not mean they earned their salvation, but it was the requirement laid out to be saved. Many times we assume that any effort negates grace, and that cannot be more false. Earning negates grace, not effort.

    Now, these miners were able to talk to their family's and friends. Did their families have to plead and beg them to be the size needed? If the miners did not do what was required, was the blame put on the families who talked to them, the rescuers or on the miners?

    On another note, how did Paul preach the Gospel to the pagans on Mars Hill?
     
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would suggest that Arminianism, "logically" followed does indeed lead to pragmatism just like Calvinism "logically" followed leads to a deterministic God.

    The question is, are either being "logically" followed or do they stop where the Scriptures stop?

    In both cases we have some who stop and some who do not.
     
  4. nodak

    nodak
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    15
    webdog--sorry I did a poor job of giving a snapshot of the one chapter. No, the authors are very clear that calvinists teach the necessity of coming to God volitionally.

    What I am asking is do you think arminianism naturally leads to a different set of methods of presenting the gospel than calvinism does?
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    It can, but doesn't necessarily does. For instance, I know some calvinists who preach the Gospel out of command rather than love. I also know some arminians who think it is their personal responsibility to "win their soul". I believe both leave much to be desired.
     
  6. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    We should mark this day on the calendar. For one post, we agree.

    Sometimes, in our heatedness and great desire to be right, we forget that individuals hold individual interpretations of larger doctrines, and that there are great variances in those interpretations, be they Calvinist or Arminian, or otherwise.
     
  7. nodak

    nodak
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    15
    Did I just enter the twilight zone?? :)
     
  8. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Both if logically followed have non-Biblical conclusions. That doesn't make them wrong. It just makes the conclusion wrong. I think, somewhere in between, lies the right answer to both systems of belief and there I will remain. I will plead (not manipulate) with people to call on the name of the Lord. I will plead with God to save my lost neighbor whom I've shared the gospel with and yet refuses to believe. I do this because I am commanded to. I do this because I think hell is a real, horrible, and eternal place and I don't want anyone to go there. I do this because I love my neighbor. At the same time, I know that no ones comes to the Father unless they are drawn to Him and ultimately whether someone comes to know Christ lies in the sovereign work of God. There's no slipping over the fence into the fold. One must come through Christ and Christ alone.
     
  9. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Link below has a handy table of the common positions, and the ordo salutis.

    Calvinist ordo salutis:

    Election/Predestination (unconditional)

    Regeneration

    Faith

    Justification

    Sanctification

    Glorification



    Arminian ordo salutis:

    Prevenient grace

    Faith

    [Union with Christ]

    Justification

    Regeneration

    Sanctification

    Glorification


    The IFB ordo salutis
    (Neither Arminian or Calvinist -- gleaned from commonly expressed points in posts on this board -- not "published" because of a general rejection of "theology"):

    Outward call

    Faith/election

    Repentance

    Regeneration

    Justification

    Perseverance/Sanctification (optional depending on the particular point of view or the believer)

    Glorification


    Roman Catholic Ordo Salutis:
    (for infants the process starts with baptism)

    Prevenient Grace/Calling

    Disposition/Co-operation

    Faith and Repentance/Penance

    Baptism

    Confirmation

    Eucharist

    Penance

    Extreme Unction



    Classical Arminian and Calvinist views both start with God, not man. IFB typically starts with man, not God. Catholics start with an action of man, not God (in the case of infant baptism) or with previnient grace (like Arminians) if adults have come to faith.
     
    #9 glfredrick, Jan 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2011
  10. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    I wonder do you mean like Calvinism eventually leads back to Catholicism?
    MB
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    Now that sports fans -- is the nonsense quote of the day.
     
  12. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very interesting and helpful.

    Could you also give the Hyper Calvinist ordo salutis?

    I never could figure out the theological difference between Hyper Calvinists and the majority of Calvinists. Is there a difference and if so, what is it?
     
  13. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hyper-Calvinism would be like this:

    Predestination

    Election/Reprobation

    Regeneration for the Elect/Damnation for the reprobate

    Faith

    Justification

    Sanctification

    Glorification

    The primary difference is one of action rather than God's order of salvation, though the hyper-Calvinist would have a category for the reprobate a "double" predestination, so to speak. Hyper-Calvinists generally take it upon themselves to decide whom are the elect, thinking (wrongly) that they can discern that here on earth, and in so doing, strive to preach, minister, love, fellowship, etc., only with the elect of God instead of all the people the Scriptures command, i.e., "all people". In that sense, they are heretical as much as the Pelagian, for both are "playing" God in that they decide who is saved or who is not saved based on their own interpretations, actions, and beliefs.
     
  14. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you very much.
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hyper-Calvinism generally holds that God will save the elect, come what may, and it may be independently of the gospel. In other words, God will save the elect whether they ever hear the gospel or not.
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to this belief, there really is no purpose for the gospel even though the bible says it is the power of God unto salvation. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nodak...

    No its not. Ultimetly it is the testimony of the Holy Spirit that counts. We may witness imperfectly, but the Holy Spirit is their with us witnessing.

    He wittnesses perfectly.

    My goodness, no. The Holy Spirit is the agent of conversion.

    It is a mistake to think of it that way.

    God does the convicting and God does the saving. HE wants us to share truth with people as He opens the door of opportunity.

    That is where it ends regarding us.

    Only the "stirring of the lost" involves us. We have no part in the "winning the lost" part.

    AiC
     

Share This Page

Loading...