Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 2, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    As some here on the BB seem to believe this is one of many valid reasons to not becoming a Cal..

    does the theology of calvinism then really remove all free will from man, we are indeed "Sinners in the hand of an Angry God?"
     
  2. Skandelon

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    The non-elect could only wish they were puppets, because at least puppets just get thrown into a trunk at the end of the day.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    well, at least that "prophet" Bob Dylan got 1 thing right...

    "you gotta serve somebody, it might be the Devil, it might be the Lord, gotta serve somebody!"
     
  4. Amy.G

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    Yes.............
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Who are the non-elect?
     
  6. gloopey1

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    The whole of Calvinism is its determinist point of view. Since God supposedly "determines" who is saved and who is lost, what real choice do men have under such a system?
     
  7. JesusFan

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    well, could do what father Abraham encourages us to do...

    "can we not trust the Judge of the whole Earth to do what is Good in his own Eyes?"

    what is really better in this

    trust that God can determine what is best, or that we can manage to do a system better than he can?
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    No....and dont tell me you buy that BS.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. JesusFan

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    NOPE...

    just was asking those who hold to Arminian theology try to explain IF they view the God of cals as this...

    Why?

    As I believe in the "Bondage of the Human Will" per martin Luther, who tells us that All of us if not in Christ will be subject to a real bad slave master...

    ourselves, being bond to do wrong due to being in sin and unable to break free of our chains unless God breaks us free!
     
  10. JesusFan

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    why is that?
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Those not chosen for salvation within the Calvinistic system, that God decided would be born with a totally depraved nature due to the Fall; and thus unable to willingly respond to God's appeal to be reconciled to Him; and therefore will spend all of eternity burning because they were born un-chosen into the fallen race of mankind on earth. I can think of no more cursed, hopeless, sad and helpless creature than a non-elect human being. There is no good news for them. There is no hope for them. There is only torture, pain, suffering and torment to endure for all eternity so as to bring their creator glory.

    Does that about cover it?
     
  12. JesusFan

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    Well..

    don't think most cals would call it that way BUT...

    lets play your "devils advocate here" thing...

    Would God be in His right to do that?
    Would He be just and fair, or would we be able to stand in judgement of Him judging us?
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    OK....So I suppose you dont consider it fair do you? You were chosen & some poor fool wasnt. Did you feel sorry for the person you did NOT vote for in the last election? Did you send them an apology for NOT voting for them? You are going to choose only one person to be your spouse, right? Why not get married to everybody? That sounds fair. Lets all be universalists. Please.
     
  15. Winman

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    Does it seem fair to you? Does it seem fair that the moment you are conceived, for no fault of your own, that you are a sinner condemned to eternity in hell? What have you done to deserve eternal damnation?

    Does it seem fair that you are conceived with a sin nature and incapable of doing anything but sinning, and are condemned for the only thing you can do?

    How about you answering a question, does this seem fair to you?
     
  16. Skandelon

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    "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

    This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

    However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

    I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. I believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

    It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!
     
  17. Alive in Christ

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    A puppet master, a world of robots, you could go on and on with metaphores.


    A theology that teaches that.....

    1) God has from eternity past pre-determined who the damned are, and it is already set in stone in advance.

    2) God has from eternity past pre-determined who the saved are, and it is already set in stone in advance.

    3) All of mankind are completely and totally evil in every way, and have no ability to, in any way, seek God.

    .....pretty much deserves any and all unfflatering descriptions that people might come up with.

    It makes a mockery of the scriptures that teach that God is Love, and that God does not desire that any would perish and that all should come to repentance and eternal life.

    And no, I am not advocating for universalism.
     
    #17 Alive in Christ, Jun 2, 2011
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ah Yea & I thank God everyday that is was done that way for me anyway because if it wasnt, I wouldn't be saved so praise God Praise God Praise God! LOL Further, I do believe there are many others who would concur. Spend a little time and ask around. Here is a hint.....they would be Calvinists :laugh::godisgood:
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

    You never said a truer word my Brother! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    your ducks are in a row!!!
     
  20. Alive in Christ

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    EWF....

    Bingo.

    :tear:
     
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