Does DEFINED KJB have 1769 Cambridge text?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Logos1560, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    On the title page of D. A. Waite's THE DEFINED KING JAMES BIBLE, the following is stated: "The Authorized King James Bible Unaltered, Large Print, with Uncommon Words Defined Cambridge 1769 Text."

    I recall at least one poster here claiming that he had the 1769 Cambridge KJV text, and it seemed to be based on him having Waite's DEFINED KJB.

    Today I received a copy of an edition of the KJV printed by John Archdeacon at Cambridge in 1769.

    Do you think that the text of this actual 1769 Cambridge KJV edition will be every word the same in text as Waite's DEFINED KJB?

    How many differences would be enough to suggest that the statement on this title page is inaccurate or misleading?
     
  2. Rippon

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    Have a good time comparing the differences Lagos1560 . Waite is an unreliable guide except on the CCM topic .
     
  3. Logos1560

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    After examining a 1762 Cambridge edition of the KJV a few hours once, I have some idea of where the 1769 Cambridge edition is likely to differ from the edition of the KJV in Waite's DEFINED KJB.

    In agreement with or following the 1762 Cambridge KJV edition, the 1769 Cambridge KJV edition has the three renderings (2 Chron. 33:19, Jer. 34:16, Nahum 3:16) that Waite has claimed were the "Oxford errors" and that are considered characteristic of present-day Oxford editions. Perhaps D. A. Waite was not aware of this when he claimed that the text of his KJV edition was the "Cambridge 1769 text."

    2 Chron. 33:19
    sins [fins--has character shaped like "f" for long s] (1769 Cambridge KJV edition)
    sin (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Jeremiah 34:16
    whom he (1769 Cambridge KJV edition)
    whom ye (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Nahum 3:16
    fleeth away (1769 Cambridge KJV edition)
    flieth away (Waite's DEFINED KJB)
     
  4. Askjo

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    What???? I have the Oxford KJV saying, "he", but I have the Cambridge KJV saying, "ye."
     
  5. Jerome

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    A perusal of the online sample of Waite's Defined Bible reveals that the punctuation, capitalization, and italicization are definitely not derived from a 1769 Cambridge Bible.

    The first page (from Luke) of the DB sample seems to match the 1769 Oxford (and Cambridge editions of the 1780s and later) in punctuation, capitalization, and italicization except for verse 26 where "yea" is not capitalized.

    Here are discrepancies between the Defined Bible and several Cambridge and Oxford editions published circa 1769.

    Luke 7:25
    DB kings'
    OX1768 kings
    OX1769 kings'
    CAM1767 kings
    CAM1769 kings

    Luke 7:32
    DB marketplace
    OX1768 market-place
    OX1769 marketplace
    CAM1767 market-place
    CAM1769 market place

    Luke 7:34
    DB Son
    OX1768 Son
    OX1769 Son
    CAM1767 Son
    CAM1769 son

    Luke 7:34
    DB winebibber
    OX1768 wine-bibber
    OX1769 winebibber
    CAM1767 wine-bibber
    CAM1769 wine-bibber

    Luke 7:34 (end of verse punctuation)
    DB (exclamation point)
    OX1768 (period)
    OX1769 (exclamation point)
    CAM1767 (period)
    CAM1769 (period)

    Luke 7:37 (*italicized)
    DB *Jesus
    OX1768 Jesus
    OX1769 *Jesus
    CAM1767 Jesus
    CAM1769 Jesus

    Luke 7:37 (*italicized)
    DB *him
    OX1768 him
    OX1769 *him
    CAM1767 him
    CAM1769 him

    So, at least seven times on just one page, the Defined Bible differs from the 1769 Cambridge.

    Is one left to conclude that Waite thinks that Oxford got all the "formatting" right but not the words themselves?
     
  6. Logos1560

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    Thanks for the additional examples that show that Waite's DEFINED KJB does not have the "Cambridge 1769 text." I will check them out. If you find more, please post them.

    Here are some more examples: [I changed the character like "f" for long s]

    Exodus 23:23
    and the Hivites (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    the Hivites (DEFINED KJB)

    Deuteronomy 10:2
    thou brakedst (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge, 1769 Oxford)
    thou brakest (DEFINED KJB)

    Luke 4:33
    and he cried out (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    and cried out (DEFINED KJB)

    Acts 7:28
    thou killedst the Egyptian (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    thou diddest the Egyptian (DEFINED KJB)

    2 Corinthians 3:3
    fleshly tables (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    fleshy tables (DEFINED KJB)

    2 Corinthians 8:7
    in utterance (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    and utterance (DEFINED KJB)

    Galatians 2:6
    those, who (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    these who (DEFINED KJB)

    Philippians 4:2
    and I beseech Syntyche (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    and beseech Syntyche (DEFINED KJB)

    1 Timothy 4:16
    thy doctrine (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    the doctrine (DEFINED KJB)

    James 2:16
    be ye warmed, and be ye filled (1762 Cambridge, 1769 Cambridge)
    be ye warmed and filled (DEFINED KJB)

    There are a few differences between the text of the 1762 Cambridge edition and the 1769 Cambridge edition.
     
  7. Logos1560

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    The present Cambridge KJV editions do have "ye" at this verse, but that was not the case for the Cambridge KJV editions printed in 1762 and 1769.
    The present Oxford KJV edition in the Scofield Reference Bible has "he" at this verse, but it is not true of all present Oxford KJV editions.

    Cambridge editions printed in 1629 and 1638 introduced some renderings that were followed by later Oxford editions. Sometimes after Oxford editions introduced changes, Cambridge editions would later have them.
    Later Oxford editions followed some renderings from the 1762 Cambridge while later Cambridge editions followed some renderings from the 1769 Oxford. There was not one standard Cambridge KJV edition from 1629 until today. There was not one standard Oxford editions from 1675 until today. It was around 1900 or later before most Cambridge editions and Oxford editions had the present characteristic differences that they now usually have.
     
  8. Logos1560

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    Like the 1762 Cambridge edition, the 1769 Cambridge edition used an apostrophe in possessive pronouns as now found in present Oxford editions ["their's" (Gen. 15:13), "our's" (Gen. 26:20), "your's" (Gen. 45:20), "her's" (Deut. 21:15)]. Waite's DEFINED KJB does not have an apostrophe in these examples.

    Here are some other examples of differences between an actual KJV edition printed at Cambridge in 1769 and Waite's DEFINED KJB:

    Gen. 10:16
    Emorite (1769 Cambridge)
    Amorite (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 15:18
    In that same day (1769 Cambridge)
    In the same day (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 18:19
    houshold [houfhold] (1769 Cambridge)
    household (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 19:12
    son-in-law [fon-in-law] (1769 Cambridge)
    son in law (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 20:4
    LORD (1769 Cambridge)
    Lord (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 22:4
    lift (1769 Cambridge)
    lifted (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 23:10
    amongst [amongft] (1769 Cambridge)
    among (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 24:3
    amongst (1769 Cambridge)
    among (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 24:63
    lift up his eyes (1769 Cambridge)
    lifted up his eyes (DEFINED KJB)

    Gen. 25:18
    towards (1769 Cambridge)
    toward (DEFINED KJB)

    Genesis 26:1
    besides [befides] (1769 Cambridge)
    beside (DEFINED KJB)

    Have enough examples been presented to show that Waite's DEFINED KJB does not have "Cambridge 1769 Text"?
     
  9. Jerome

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    Perhaps there were several editions in 1769. Mine reads differently than yours in these places:

    Gen. 26:20
    ours

    Gen. 45:20
    yours

    Deut. 10:2
    brakest

    2 Chron. 33:19
    sin

    Gal. 2:6
    those who
     
  10. Logos1560

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    As I understand it, printers such as Cambridge sometimes printed more than one edition in a year: a folio edition, a quarto edition, etc. Sometimes they were slight differences in text between those editions;
    some of which may have been the fault of printers while others may have been kept from an earlier edition of that size or have been intentional changes by an editor.

    The edition I obtained has at the bottom of the title page:
    Cambridge, printed by John Archdeacon printer to the University, and fold [sold] by John Beecroft, John Rivington, Benjamin White, and Edward Dilly, in London; and T. & J. Merrill, in Cambridge, 1769. Cum Privilegio.
    This edition measures 10 3/8 inches in height, 8 1/2 in width, and 3 inches in width. It is thick because it also was bound with an edition of the Book of Common Prayer at the beginning, a New Version of the Psalms of David fitted to the tunes used in Churches and a brief concordance by John Downame at the end.

    In checking the differences you found, I found that my 1769 Cambridge edition differed from yours in some of your examples. My 1769 Cambridge edition has "Son" at Luke 7:34, "market-place" at Luke 7:32.
     
  11. Jerome

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    My sources are microfilmed, with the same title page publishing info and year.
    Twelve inches is the dimension given. The NT is complete; the OT only goes to Psalms.

    I checked the two other sample pages provided on Waite's site. All the words match my 1769 Cambridge KJV, but the punctuation, etc. clearly do not. The formatting is that of the 1769 Oxford edition.
    Perhaps Waite's Bible is actually the 1769 Oxford edition with the "Oxford errors" corrected?
     
  12. Logos1560

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    Where did you find these microfilm KJV editions especially the 1769 Oxford? Are they at a library or do you know a source where they can be obtained? If at a library, which library has them?

    I have been looking for a place to examine an actual KJV edition printed in 1769. I know that they have a copy of one at the American Bible Society's library in New York City, but I have not been able to go there to see it.

    When I searched the national catalogue for the 1769 Oxford KJV, it was listed in thousands of libraries. Most of these libraries must only have a later edition of what they consider to be the Oxford text. I have been to some libraries on the list and know that they do not actually have an Oxford KJV edition printed in 1769.
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome
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    See here.
    Many large universities subscribe to this microfilm database.
    It is not available to individuals, but I see they are offering a free trial to libraries.
     
  14. Logos1560

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    Jerome, thanks for the information. I will see if I can get access to this microfilm database somewhere.
     
  15. Logos1560

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    Numbers 20:14
    travel (1769 Cambridge edition)
    travail (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Nehemiah 1:11
    O LORD (1769 Cambridge edition)
    O Lord (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Lamentations 1:15
    The LORD (1769 Cambridge edition)
    The Lord (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Lamentations 3:5
    travel (1769 Cambridge edition)
    travail (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Lamentations 3:58
    O LORD (1769 Cambridge edition)
    O Lord (Waite's DEFINED KJB)
     
  16. Logos1560

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    another difference:

    Proverbs 19:20
    the latter end (1769 Cambridge edition)
    thy latter end (Waite's DEFINED KJB)

    Actual facts show that Waite's DEFINED KJB does not have a text that is every word the same as "Cambridge 1769 Text."
     

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