Does God allow Christians 'Free Will" To Reject salvation/Jesus?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Oct 17, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    As a good friend of mine held that God values free will so much, permits us after getting saved to reject Jesus if we choose to!

    He agreed that NONE can take them out of the Fathers hand once saved, but that God allows us to choose to walk away!

    Well, Armianism to its logical conclusion?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is what many Arminians believe, but that is not what scripture teaches.

    When you accept Christ, you are joined to his spirit (Holy Spirit), just as in physical birth the sperm and ovum are joined together.

    1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
    17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    Note how Paul compares our spiritual union to Christ with a physical union.

    When a man and woman come together, they become one flesh in their children. Your children are both you, and your wife, but they are neither, they are a new creation, they are a new person.

    Likewise, when you accept Christ, your spirit is first washed and cleansed from sin, and then joined to the Holy Spirit, and becomes ONE spirit. This is the new birth, being born again of the Spirit. You are a new creation, and a new person.

    Now we partake in the divine nature.

    2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    A truly born again Christian cannot fall away in unbelief, because the Holy Spirit or "seed" remains in them and they cannot sin.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    If you are truly born again and have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit, you cannot fall away in unbelief because the Spirit or "seed" remains in you, and the Holy Spirit cannot sin.

    You do not have to persevere, that is works. You are preserved by the Holy Spirit that lives and abides with you forever.

    Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Those persons who "fall away" are those persons who have been enlightened by the Spirit, and even brought to the point of repentance, but they turn and fall away from the truth. They "taste" of the word of God, but they do not "eat".

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    You have free will once you are saved, just like you had before, but you have the Holy Spirit abiding in you forever, and therefore you will never will to reject God.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    But wouldn't his belief in this actually be the logical conclusion for holding to Arm/Non cals view points though?
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    His? Who are you talking about?

    And what logical conclusion are you asking about?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    If the Lord honored Free Will of humans to such an extent that He has us decide to receive jesus and get saved, why would he not continue to honor Free Will He gave and allow us to walk away if we choose too?
     
  6. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can't walk away once you receive Jesus, because you are forever sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    A true born again Christian cannot continue in sin, because his "seed" (the Holy Spirit) remains in him, and he cannot sin.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    No true Christian can walk away from Jesus in unbelief. This does not mean we do not have free will, we will have perfect free will, but we will willingly choose Jesus, being a partaker of the divine nature.

    2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    Soan arminian would see sinners having more free will than saints?
     
  8. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Calvinists claim "Total Spiritual inability" results in fallen men being unable to choose to seek God or trust in Christ. God predestines everything, "whatsoever comes to pass" and therefore God is the author of each and every sin committed by everyone. Then after prohibiting the ability to seek mercy, He then punishes fallen folks for the sins He predestined.

    Do all Arminians espouse the ability to walk away from salvation? Nope Do many if not most Non-Cals espouse eternal security? Yep.

    Thus this thread is a strawman, calculated to obfuscate the issue of exhaustive determinism. Go figure.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,927
    Likes Received:
    367
    No, that's not the logical conclusion to Armianism - although some do believe that and it may be "a" logical conclusion.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    John 1 "He came to his OWN and His OWN received Him not"

    Matt 23 "O Jersusalem... how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not".

    I think the Bible is clear that the lost can reject salvation EVEN in cases where God sovereignly chooses to work for their salvation.

    Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked - the saved being lost.
    Rom 11 those who stand only by their faith are to "fear for if he did not spare them neither will He spare you".
    Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ" -- and "Fallen FROM grace" is the condition of a saved saint that is then lost.

    BTW - as much as I often find Y1's ideas to lack a certain degree of reason and Bible support. Here is a case where I do agree with one of his arguments - this "the sants can salvation if they choose to do so" - is indeed the logical conclusion of the Arminian argument.

    The only way to cling to the Bible based Arminian view - and yet reject the Bible teaching on "Forgiveness revoked" in favor of the man-made tradition of OSAS - is to cling to the LOSS of free will for the saved - which is a form of Calvinism.

    Hard to escape that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    As we learn from the RCC in the dark ages - "people can hold to self-conflicted views - and to any view". The fact that some Christians believe in marrying evolutionism to the Bible, or some Christians pray to the dead, or that some Arminians cling to the Calvinist notion of the loss of free will after salvation in order to cling to the man-made-tradition of OSAS - does not make any of that logical or Biblical.

    So it is always true that you can find "someone" that holds to some nonsensical view - it does not make it "consistent" with all Bible positions or even their own world view in other areas. They can and do hold to self-conflicted positions as has been the case with many people in all ages.

    Nothing new in that regard.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    no, not a strawman arguement, but just trying to show what the logoca; conclusion is in arminianism. for if the Lord allows us actually full free will in order toa ccept Jesus, why would he turn around and deny us free will to choos to walk away? If we cannot do that, then would HAVE to hold to eternal security of the believer! unconditional !
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    Those holding to more of theArm viewpoint in salvation would have to either have God allowing us free will to get saved/lost, or else become Cals!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    IF one is really non cal, can afrgue against it, but a true arm who accept free will, would have to extend that to getting saved and also getting lost!
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is a classic Calvinist argument that is impossible to refute.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I agree that your point is logical and consistent.

    You - see just because I strongly differ on some points - does not mean I must rail and differ on every point.

    Just as I stated in the case of C.H Spurgeon and his version of the Baptist Confession of Faith.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That argument is incredibly EASY to refute.

    When you accept Christ you are joined to the Holy Spirit.

    1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    A Christian partakes in the divine nature;

    2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    The true Christian cannot sin, because the Holy Spirit remains in him. He cannot fall away in unbelief.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    The Holy Spirit will NEVER leave a Christian;

    Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    How can a true Christian lose salvation? We are sealed until the day of redemption, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit who will abide with us forever and will never leave us, we are joined to the Spirit and partake of the divine nature, and we cannot continuously sin because the Holy Spirit remains in us and we cannot sin.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Notice that in 1John 3 - that you quoted above it says that the one who is born again "cannot sin". Did you never sin since becoming a Christian?

    No?

    Yes!

    That which it is our privilege to experience is not always that which we choose to experience even as saints.

    In the previous chapter John said "These things I write that you SIN NOT - but if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father".

    In 1 John 3 in that same context NO one that is born of God "sins".

    So when you sin - you are already not taking full advantage of the benefits of the Gospel - yet you have an Advocate with the Father.

    Still when you use that text to claim that you cannot become "FALLEN FROM Grace" or be "SEVERED FROM Christ" Gal 5:4 - you show the flaw in your argument - because in fact you did sin after becoming saved.

    In the same way Paul says about the Gospel "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified".

    And in Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked - where the person who does not forgive others just as he had fully experienced in his life full forgiveness for all -- is the one whose full debt is returned. Jesus said "SO SHALL my Father do to each one of you"..

    In Romans 11 Paul says to the one who "stands only by your faith" that they should "FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you".

    In the proposal that the one who is enabled to choose Christ and choose salvation -- is also enabled to choose to leave, to refuse to "persevere firm unto the end" - by that same mechanism of free will and NOT because God suddenly fails him, or the devil suddenly becomes stronger than God.

    The only alternative to this is the Calvinist model that would say you could not choose salvation nor can you choose against it once saved because God does not allow you to do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, a Christian can grieve the Spirit. But a Christian cannot leave the Spirit, because he is supernaturally JOINED to the Spirit, the man's spirit and the Holy Spirit have become ONE.

    1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    You can't walk away from YOURSELF!!
     
  20. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will agree that there are many scriptures that SEEM to say a man can lose his salvation, but I believe when you study them carefully you will see the person was never saved in the first place.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These persons did not lose their salvation, they were NEVER saved to begin with.

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    These persons never trusted in Jesus, like those in Matthew 7 they depended on their works. Christ was effectual for them, but they have forfeited this.

    When Paul speaks of being a castaway, in context he was speaking of earning crowns. He did not want to be disqualified from service, like preachers who have fallen. Paul said that he believed Jesus was able to KEEP him.

    2 Tim 2:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    I would be the first one to agree that there are many scriptures that could SEEM to say a person can lose salvation, but I believe none of these persons actually trusted Christ. These are persons who have heard and understood the gospel, but have never committed themselves to Jesus. This is what is described in Hebrews 6;

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    These persons were enlightened, they have tasted (but not eaten) of the word of God, they have been brought to the point of repentance, but have fallen away in unbelief. They never believed, they never bare good fruit, but only thorns and briers.
     
    #20 Winman, Oct 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...