Does God know?

One thing is for certain God did not lie, b/c God cannot lie (Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:28-29). It goes against His very nature. Now in regards to your question—where do you get that God decreed that Hezekiah would die? There is a difference between a divinely decreed statement and a statement of divine intent. Decrees/sworn declarations are unconditional & bind the speaker to the stated course of action regardless of the circumstances or reaction of the listener (cf Gen 22:16-18; Ps 110:4). Ie they come to pass regardless of any other circumstance. A divine intention on the other hand retains a conditional element & does not bind the speaker to a stated coarse of action (cf Jer 18:8-10; 26:13,19; Jonah 3:9-10). Ie the outcome can be altered based on the reaction of the one to whom the statement is made. I personally put 2 Kings 20 in the divine intent category. But regardless of this linguistic difference between us, I still don’t see how it could be assumed that God did not know what Hezekiah would do. If we take into account Ps 139:16—we see God knowing all that will happen to us even before it actually happens. Job 14:5 tells that God even knows the number of our days (or lifespan). Its not as if God did not know Hezekiah would pray & would not die at that exact time (this would contradict both Ps 139:16 & Job 14:5 if He did not know). But instead, the real question becomes how did Hezekiah’s prayer legitimately impacted the situation —or how does prayer work in relation to an all knowing God—who can know our needs even before we ask (Matt 6:8), yet not met our needs until we ask for His provision (Jam 4:2). But back to the question at hand, IMO either God is truly omniscient & knows all (even that Hez would pray & not get 2 Kgs 20:2 immediately fulfilled) or He can be taken by surprise & have His eternal omniscience thwarted by mans actions.

 

Although I am not a "fan" of Matt Slick. I do think he is "onto something" here.

"By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen - the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.

Logic

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed any more than my choice of what to write inside the parenthesis (hello) was removed by God who knew I would put the word "hello" in the parentheses before the universe was made. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make, it can be known by God, and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice."

 

Your last statement is a false dichotomy. The option of "we don't know" also exists.

I'm sorry, but I do not see what you call "divine intent" anywhere in the passage in question.

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

That is pretty cut and dried that it was not merely God's intention knowing he was going to pray...it was going to happen, a done deal. The Lord Himself even stated later...
"Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.

If this was merely "intent", God would not be ADDING years to his life, it would have been part of His intent. His intent was for his life to end, but Hezekiah prayed, God heard, and then ADDED 15 years to what He had decreed...Hezekiah was going to die.

 

Well actually its not false dichotomy when the Bible clearly says He knows all—Maybe I take this to black & white without allowing for any grey—but He either knows all or does not.

I had to laugh when I read this—b/c I never saw a decree in this statement, like you proposed.

By this analogy God would be lying if he had decreed something that did not come to pass. But once again maybe this is just where we differ in linguistic understanding. But let me ask you this—did God know Hezekiah would pray? Did God know Hezekiah’s lifespan? Was God taken by surprise by Hezekiah’s request? Were the actions of an omniscient & omnipotent God thwarted by the desires & actions of a human Hezekiah? Like I said maybe I’m just to black & white on this issue, when there is some grey involved—but I personally just don’t see how God could truly be eternally omniscient & not know the genuine outcome of this situation.

 

Jesus, being fully God, doesn't know the hour of His return. How?

You do not see "you will die, you will not recover" as a decree? What is it, a suggestion? Should there have been an asterisk next to that decree?

It's not an analogy, it's a historic event.

I'm not going to pretend to know what God knew, I"m only going by what I read in the account.

Apparently in order to ADD 15 years to it.

That's open theism, but it still remains a mystery.

No, but that does not mean God doesn't choose to interact with His creation the way He so chooses to. God desires that we do not sin, yet we do. Does that make us sovereign over God?

Coming from a pretty "black and white" person myself, I can appreciate the honesty.

 

Webdog-
And its your very points that make me not utterly opposed to the idea of middle knowledge. While I don’t personally endorse it, I do think its biblically plausible b/c it still allows for God’s omniscience to stay in tact. As long as open theism is not the end result—then I personally don’t mind seeing others disagree with my “black & white” definition of God’s omniscience. I also think prayer has to somehow work into the equation. But I don’t personally believe the Hezekiah example proves God did not know something—only that He some how allows prayer to impact the end result without counteracting His all knowing ability.

 

So fresh to see someone who doesnt KNOW ALL the answers. Thank You!!

 

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Here is the problem I have with this kind of belief based on the examples you gave. No one knows that the sun will rise tomorrow. While the possibilities are extremely high yet no one absolutely knows except God. You may point to the bible as evidence but that is faith not absolute knowledge. They may scream and kick claiming they know, but they do not have absolute knowledge although would not suggest any bets against the claim of the sun will rise because the odds would be terrible. In the case of your child and the preferences in food. Again you do not know. The child could just bow their head and fall asleep walk away or spill it all on the floor and many other possibilities. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]These examples are nothing but playing the odds, not foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is absolute without the possibility of any other thing taking place. I agree that foreknowledge does not limit the possibilities as foreknowledge is not a determining factor in events, but entwined in the original question is how the foreknowledge is acquired and depending on the answer the acquiring may not only limit the possibilities but decide what happens. If God is ordaining every event, I reject that, then He has brought sin into creation and we had no choice. If He has the ability to look down through history, and I reject that, then I would like to know who sets history in stone, if God at some point did not know all. That would make God subject to history weaving and plotting His desires around history. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Keep in mind that there cannot be variables to future history if everything is already determined as to how it will play out. In the case where God clearly ordains something I believe that such things are set and cannot fail and so the claim as to His foreknowledge would be valid in such cases. The cross, the coming rule of Christ, and so on. However the question remains is everything else set in stone? Can all the rest that has no prior revelation to us from God be allowed to play itself with all the variables taking any possible path possible and still end up with His revelation coming to pass?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

 

QF...

I know that this was not your intent, but I would like to point out something.

No one is a determinist by nature. The whole idea is counterintuitive to man. Why? Because man wants to be the one in control. Just as Adam wanted his way over God's way. Just as Satan, said "I will, I will, I will,,,,.

It is God's Word that makes man see that God is indeed in full control. I'm not saying this rids us of counterintuitiveness (is that a word?), because man seems to always battle this in part till the day he dies.

Man's freewill is what we are born with, not knowing it is bound.

Just had to say something.

Carry on..

James

 

The only thing I have found troubling with Chuck Swindoll is his reformed leanings.

 

James,

I have said and pointed out many times in various threads throughout BB land, I am not of the "libertarian free will" persuasion. But I have seen several on this board say things which certainly implies that they are "hard determinists". I do agree with you, in that man likes (loves) to have the idea that "he" is in control, but I do not see that as being the necessary cause of holding to free agency.
Yes, we are born with it, I am convinced that we are born with it from God's design.

 

My thoughts exactly. It is the absolute height of arrogance to tell God what he must and must not do! This is especially true when it is based on one's finite understanding of God and all His doings! Luke, in his explaining the sovereignty of God limits both what God can and cannot do! This is preposterous!

 

Thanks Robert, I often "grow tired" of this debate, I usually don't mind it, save for those moments when my friends from the other side "seem" to want imply that their opponents are intellectual midgets.

 

Which part do you disagree with?

 

All the silly exclamation points and the ridiculous hyperbole- it's all silly, childish emotional banter.

I started a thread a week ago entitled- "Free Will: result of emotional handicap?"

No theologically knowledgeable person would have ANY problem whatsoever demanding that God MUST act a certain way.

Any person with even an average theological IQ understands that being divine causes God to behave a certain way.

You can lie. Why? Because you are not divine.

God MUST always tell the truth for the VERY reason that he IS God.

Calvinism is something that requires a certain amount of spiritual and theological maturity to get.

 

It is comments like this that some of us find so irritating. I "get" Calvinism which is why I reject it.

I suppose everyone who rejects Calvinism is spiritually and theologically immature.

 

You are easily agitated.

That comment was not directed at you. Some people do understand it and reject it. Many people are not mature enough theologically to get it.


I did not direct that statement toward anyone but him. But I did mean it to him.

 

No, actually I'm pretty patient. But I tire of being called spiritually immature or too uneducated to understand Calvinism. It causes "agitation".