Does God need humans to carry out his plans?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Is it correct that God cannot do on earth whatever he wants because Adam gave away the dominion to Satan and this means Satan is the god of this world and God also has to stick to certain rules which means that God cannot do whatever he pleases? For example when God wants to save a person he first of all needs others to pray to him so that he is able to do something. Is this correct? Doesn't this take away from God's omnipotence?
    And does God need us to help him save people? Does this mean that if God is looking for workers and he doesn't find any that many people will go to hell which could have been saved? Does it depend on us wether somebody is saved or not?
    For example could some people have been saved if others had prayed more for them? Or does God save those which he wants to save anyway? :confused:
     
  2. webdog

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    If He needed our help, He wouldn't be God.
     
  3. xdisciplex

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    then what about this:

    This seems strange, doesn't it? It's like God needs someone to ask him not to do something which he doesn't even want to do. :confused:

    And this here sounds like God needs people to carry out his plan.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    God creates a Universe that is not in chaos - but one goverened by laws and order.

    First question - DID Adam and Eve forfeit control on earth - handing the keys to the house over to Satan in some way?

    2Cor 4
    4 [b] in whose case the god of this world has blinded[/b] the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Eph 2
    1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you formerly walked according to the
    course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air[/b], of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


    In Matt 4 - Satan offers to hand over the World IF Christ will give him what he wants --

    Matt 4 -
    8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
    9and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."


    Christ's answer is not of the form "you don't have anything to give"

    Rev 12
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for [b]the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God
    day and night.
    11 ""And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
    12 ""For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. [b
    ]Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil[/b] has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.''
     
    #4 BobRyan, Oct 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2006
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    God needs nobody. His will is always accomplished because he is soveriegn and omnipotent.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Scarlett O.

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    Two things:

    • Satan is not the god of this world. He is not the "god" of anything. In John 14:30 and John 16:11, Jesus Christ refers to Satan as the "prince of this world." He is referring to his being the prince of sin and having the authority and power to tempt people. And even there, the only authority he has is what God allows him to do. See the critical verse Job 1:12. But in the same breath found in the book of John, Jesus says that satan has no power over Him and therefore no power over or equal to God's.
    • God does not need us to do anything for Him. But, because He loves us, He calls us to serve Him. There's a big difference in those two ideas.
     
    #6 Scarlett O., Oct 15, 2006
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2006
  7. Agnus_Dei

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    It certainly wouldn’t hurt to pray for a person you know is without Christ. I believe in Prevenient Grace, which is the Holy Spirit at work in everyone between conception and conversion. The Holy Spirit woos or prevents us from moving so far towards disobedience, that when we finally understand the claims of the gospel we are then guaranteed the freedom to say yes.

    In my opinion preaching hell fire typically produces a false conversion. God uses the Church to help accelerate this Prevenient Grace by carrying out the sacraments He (Jesus) instituted and commanded His Church to provide.

    Furthermore, how did God save Noah? Simple, God commanded Noah to build an Ark and thus Noah and his family were saved.

    I’m really not a fan of “predestination”. My aunt and uncle are mentally handicapped and therefore are not “saved” by some protestant interpretation of biblical salvation, because they can’t repeat a prayer and “know” what they are saying. Does this mean that they're hell bound?
     
  8. Not_hard_to_find

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    There are many on this earth who would take such judgment upon themselves. I am so grateful that God is in charge of who is and is not saved -- always has been, always will be. I prefer that be in His capable hands.
     
  9. dispen4ever

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    Yes. I'd say it a little differently. Leave out the "but" and change the word "ideas" to "truths."

    God does not need us to do anything for Him. Because He loves us, He calls us to serve Him. There's a big difference in those two Truths.

    In answer to His call to serve, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Not in my own strength, only in His.

    Suffer it to be so, for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.

    When we incorporate scripture into our discussions we incorporate Christ, igniting our spiritual understanding. Without scripture, we become babblers. No commentary, no pastor-teacher, no one can compare to God's Word. It is impossible for me to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I must not lean to my own understanding. In all things, I must acknowledge Him. He imparts His wisdom via the Holy Spirit, who ministers to us moment-by-moment when we acknowlege that our wisdom, our intellect, our mental insights are to get out of the way.
     
  10. donnA

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    no, God is all powerful, has all control.
    no, God can do as His likes, no ones salvation is dependant on us.
    if it were true, and it isn't.
    no, absolutely not, God is able to save whom he please, no matter our actions, or lack of.
    God saves who He chooses, He is in control, we have no control over Him, if He could only save who we pray for, then who would be in control? Us.
    God is sovereign, means He has all control over all things in the universe, He doe snot relinquish His control to us.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    1 Timothy
    1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

    2 Timothy 2:
    14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

    23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

    In other words, you will do well to read and study God's word instead of questioning the sovereignty of God.
     
  12. dispen4ever

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    Well said, Amy.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You exhibit much wisdom in your posts.
    I was wondering if you might at least believe it is possible that God, due to circumstances unknown to us, and for reasons unknown to us, could have created a world which would necessitate the cooperation of man in carrying out His plans, without which some desired initiatives or desires might not be fully accomplished?

    It would appear to me, for reasons I do not understand, that God has, by design, necessity, and or both, limited His Divine intervention in this present world in some areas, and positioned and ordained man as a responsible party for accomplishing His desires, again, without which some of God’s desires will not see fruition.

    For instance, God desires all men to be saved. I cannot help but feel that our efforts are indeed responsible for the accomplishment or failure of that desire of God’s at least to some degree.

    Is this at all within what you see as reasonable and feasible and above all in accordance to truth?
     
  14. El_Guero

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    You need a discipler SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad.

    :jesus: still loves you!
     
  15. Brian30755

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    Why then, did Jesus instruct us to pray for God's will to be done on earth? Will His will always be accomplished even if we don't pray for it to be? (Serious question. Not trying to start an argument. I'd like to understand why Jesus instructed His disciples to pray "Thy will be done", if it's going to be done anyway.)

    Thanks.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    God creates a Universe that is not in chaos - but one goverened by laws and order.

    First question - DID Adam and Eve forfeit control on earth - handing the keys to the house over to Satan in some way?

    2Cor 4
    4 [b] in whose case the god of this world has blinded[/b] the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Eph 2
    1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you formerly walked according to the
    course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air[/b], of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


    In Matt 4 - Satan offers to hand over the World IF Christ will give him what he wants --

    Matt 4 -
    8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
    9and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."


    Christ's answer is not of the form "you don't have anything to give"

    Rev 12
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for [b]the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God
    day and night.
    11 ""And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
    12 ""For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. [b
    ]Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil[/b] has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.''




    And second point -- Does God need us to evangelize? God DOES reach ALL "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12 and "Drawing ALL mankind to Himself" John 12:32 - But God ALSO uses evangelists and missionaries -- in addition.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Amy.G

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    God does not NEED us to do anything. He WANTS us to join in HIS work. Prayer does not change God, it changes US. Working for God does not change HIM but it is how we show OUR obedience to Him. When our son was young we encouraged him to share in our work, whether it was yard work, household chores, whatever not because we NEEDED his help, usually it slowed down the work, but because of what it taught him. It made him a better person. God's design for us is to become more like Christ. I think we do this by joining God in His work and purpose.
     
  18. Marcia

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    I kinda get tired of telling you this, but you spend too much time listening to false teachers. This is a Word Faith teaching. Don't listen to Word Faith teachers!!

    No, yes, no, no, no, no, yes.

    God doesn't need people but he uses them.
     
  19. Scarlett O.

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    I really don't think so.

    I believe more along the lines of Amy G. who posted earlier.

    God wants us to pray and work and witness and preach and teach, not to assist Him in accomplishing His plans, but more in order to change us into what He wants us to become.

    If God has a plan for me to witness to someone and I, due to whatever excuse refuse to do it, God can still save that person via any means He so chooses. I don't do the saving, I only share the gospel.

    And what is lost is not any of God's control or God's will, but my spiritual growth and my place in the center of God's will. I am deterred in my spiritual walk with God. God's plans are never deterred by my or any other human being uncooperative.

     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think Amy has explained it quite well. God is sovereign over all and there is not one molecule in the entire universe that is outside of his soveriegn and omnipotent will.

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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