Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    The thread was closed before I could conclude. This is a long post, and I hate making long posts, because they don't get read. Skip to the last two paragraphs for a direct answer to the question.
    The answer to your question is, JUST children who placed faith in Jesus get saved. Men look on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. The great objection to the idea that an infant can be condemned doesn't spring from a spiritual view of justice, but a carnal one. When one thinks of children or infants in heaven or hell, they're not thinking of spirits, they're thinking of children and infants, and herein is the critical flaw. Is the spirit ignorant? Is it a baby-shaped ghost with a peurile mentality cooing and giggling as it's passed from angel to angel? And in the end, when the body is resurrected, is it resurrected a child or an infant?

    Honestly, once one thinks it through, and realizes how ludicrous it is to think of the spirit as a baby-shaped ghost in either heaven or hell, doesn't it placate our carnal sense of justice a bit? Doesn't one realize one might have been too harsh in his condemnation of God? (Because that's who's really being blamed, isn't it?) In all honesty, that spirit is "bowing the knee," so to speak, and acknowledging God's righteous judgment. His thoughts are not toward his mommy and daddy, wondering where they are to comfort him and save him from torment if that's where he is.

    When one gets a glimpse at the heart of a little child, then it's much easier to think of them as monsters. Just ask any mother whose child is bullied by another child in the day care. To hear the talk about the bullies and their mothers would shock you. I'm surprised Psalm 137:9 isn't on a bumper sticker somewhere. But then, to hear the bully's mother defend him—insanity is the only description that even comes close.

    On earth where there is law, marriage, birth, death, infants, adults, young and old, ignorance and learning, etc. Justice is of one kind. It's administrated by men. In heaven where there are none of those things, justice is of a different kind. It's administrated by God. On earth, we take into account one's age and cognition, as well we should, though that is little comfort to the victims. In heaven one is either whole or corrupt. There is no mitigating circumstance.

    On earth, where we look on the outward appearance, we see an innocent. But God looks on the heart, and He sees the reign of death. Corruption.

    Salvation is only by grace through faith. So the question is, how does an infant respond in faith? The same way we do. If we think that our brains and learning and carnal communication skills has anything to do with our ability to respond in faith, we're deceiving ourselves. We're told straight out that these things are spiritually discerned.

    But even so, there is a tremendous assumption that infants have no capacity to discern even carnal things. What learning did John the Baptist have when he lept for joy in Elisabeth's womb at the sound of Mary's greeting? There are only two possibilities. 1) John the Baptist knew it by nature, which means that infants are capabable of much more discernment than we Darwinists give them credit for, or 2) That it was revealed to him by the Spirit of God, which means that an infant can respond in faith, for the natural man receiveth not the things of God.
     
  2. JesusFan

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    What IF the Lord though decided to"regenerate" those who are among the persons unable to place faith in Jesus?

    Are we limiting God and saying that He cannot decide to do such a thing?
     
  3. percho

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    I do not totally disagree but I would like to ask.

    AS a fetus could he have responded in a negative manner? Did he respond in faith or did he respond because of faith?

    Was he born of the spirit before he was born of the flesh?

    1 Cor.15:46.
     
  4. Aaron

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    That's what He does in every case of salvation. Let me put it to you this way. I'm dead. What do I know? What can I do? The Lord breathed life into me and I rose and followed Him.

    How is that different for an infant?
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron
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    This could be asked about anyone, young or old.

    Infants are saved the same way adults are saved.
     
  6. DHK

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    Not if David's infant went to heaven. You limit God.
    You call yourself a Calvinist and yet reject the very Scripture you so often use:

    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, (Romans 9:18)
    --Does he have mercy or doesn't he? You are the Calvinist! Answer the question!
    He doesn't. He can't.
    Stop acting like you are "spiritually discerned." An infant cannot exercise faith. This is common sense.
    None.
    Both are wrong.
    It was a sign from God. Look Aaron, I know you have never been pregnant and have never had the experience to carry that unborn child such as Elizabeth did and millions of other mothers are, and so perhaps you don't know what you are talking about, or are speaking out of total ignorance. Yes, I am free to say that. You are not a mother. I do have a wife, and we have had four children.
    The phrase "leapt for joy" could have simply meant a good hard kick, as many mothers have experienced, including my wife. No mother would take that as leaping for sadness, or kicking for that reason. They do that when they are active, happy babies. Thus the phrase "leapt for joy." The fact of the timing was what made it unusual. It happened the instant that Mary came. The fact that it occurred is not unusual. It happens all the time. It is a physical, natural occurrence that any mother can attest to. There was no faith involved. Your theory is absurd.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    THink that IF we take into consideration the view of David and his infant son , and jesus regarding children having their Guardian Angels before God, have to say that there is "proof" that God has indeed made a provision to be able to save those who cannot meet the faith requirement!
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    OK a 2 week old dies before being regenerated.....then what?
     
  9. Aaron

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    For obvious reasons, I will not interact with you on this subject.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Your choice, but I would like to hear the question answered. you can do that privately if you prefer.
     
  11. Aaron

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    If you think that you have by nature the capacity to respond in faith to God, then you can't help but have your view. You don't view yourself as dead in sin. If, on the other hand, you view yourself as a dead man, then it should be no more astounding to you to think that an infant could respond to the Gospel than it is to think you could.

    You are the one who is limiting God. Go out and preach to the corpses in a cemetery. There isn't a one of them with less capacity to hear and respond than you have by nature. And there isn't a one of them into which it would be harder for God to breathe life than it was for Him to breathe life into you.

    Your faith in Christ is no less a miracle than Lazarus coming forth from the grave, and you think an infant is limited?

    In Calvinism, infants can be saved. In yours, they can't, unless God provides some way other than the Door into the fold. And now you've preached another gospel.
     
    #11 Aaron, Aug 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2011
  12. DHK

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    Your entire answer is "non sequitor."
    It is off track and has nothing to do with the absurd notion that an unborn fetus (or infant) can have faith. If you want to get technical, since most believe that life begins at conception, when the sperm fertilizes the egg, then when mitosis starts occurring how does that fertilized egg think or have faith? When it is four cells, eight cells, sixteen cells large? At sixteen cells large then does it have faith to believe. It is still an "unborn infant" at that stage of conception? Who are you to say when "it has faith"? Your entire concept that an unborn 'infant' has faith is totally absurd.

    To answer your non sequitor response above.
    The Scripture says this:
    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
    --You would have us believe that the Ephesians were all dead "corpses" who suddenly came alive, were resurrected by the Holy Spirit!!! Surely you jest! You don't know what the word "dead" means, do you? With the flawed definition of "dead" you continue in a flawed theology.
    The Ephesian believers were dead because they were separated from God. Their sin; their spiritual condition had separated them from God. Only the Holy Spirit could bridge the gap, and reconcile them to Christ. They were separated (dead). To be made alive they needed the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

    If I am dead in sin, then sin has separated me from God. It does not mean I am lifeless or a corpse as your false theology would teach.
    An infant is alive. He is not separated from God. He is not dead. He has not sinned (especially in the womb). There is nothing to separate him from God. As David fell upon the mercy of God, so does a grieving parent who loses a small child or even a miscarriage. That demonstrates both the justice of God and the mercy of God.
    Again, you show a lack of knowledge of the definition of "death."
    James speaks of physical death (the cemetery)

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
    --When the spirit is separated from the body that is when death occurs. Death is separation. We are concerned with the spirit of man at that time, not the body.
    Your point is moot; meaningless.
    My faith is based on an intelligent response to the gospel; if yours isn't then perhaps you are not saved. The Bible says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not superstition and mysticism.
    In Calvinism, there is no hope. You have demonstrated that. Infants cannot have faith. You cling to the impossible and then in blind faith say it is true. You may as well be asserting that the moon is made of blue cheese. It is blind faith with no evidence.
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    Aren't you the one that teaches you have your own faith, that it is not a gift? If so, then that unborn baby has faith at some point.

    We have it correct in knowing the Scriptures teach that God gives us faith to be saved.

    Calling ones salvation into question is uncalled for and is against the BB rules. How you contiinue to do these things and call out others for very minor things is beyond me.

    Telling one his theological view is hopeless is also uncalled for, and just being contentious.
     
  14. DHK

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    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
    At what point does a conglomeration of eight cells as it continues to grow and develop inside the womb of a mother hear and understand the word of God in order to have the faith to believe in it?
    Are you? Who says? Scripture please.
    I will call the salvation of an infant into question any day I want. The infant will go to heaven not because "of its faith." That is ludicrous.
    The one calling the other contentious is contentious indeed.

    But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:16)
     
  15. Aaron

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    Does the Holy Spirit bear witness with our brains, or with our spirits? And are our spirits a product of the development you just described?
     
  16. Aaron

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    I'll go ahead and answer: The Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16.

    If life begins at conception, then the spirit is in that body from the beginning of that development. So tell me, oh wise and educated one, at what point is the spirit able to think? What is the magic number of cells before the spirit can be considered intelligent?
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    You were addressing this to Aaron, not an infant.

    Any person can see this.

    Not cool.
     
  18. Aaron

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    . . . how many posts have been made where one is agonizing over the eternal state of an embryo one may have spontaneously aborted, or a miscarriage in just the first few weeks of pregnancy? Those things usually happen in the toilet. Few if any have an emotional attachment to their children then.

    But when it comes to one that perishes just a little before birth, or shortly thereafter—whoah, boy. You'd better look out.

    Doesn't this suggest that the questions don't come from a concern for justice, but from a concern for self? One's own will, and one's own desires? All souls are mine, says the Lord. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

    It's easy to say that when we're talking about souls to which we don't have an emotional bond. It doesn't change its veracity when it's a soul to which we do.
     
  19. Aaron

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    It doesn't bother me. Really. It's really hard for me to imagine that it bothers anyone if another questions his salvation. He must not have assurance thereof.
     
  20. DHK

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    I believe that the soul and the spirit develop together.
    Other synonyms that the Bible uses for the spirit are the mind and the heart. The fruit of the spirit is comes from the heart, for example. But the fruit of the spirit cannot be exercised without intelligence, without an active and deliberate choice of the mind: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, kindness.
    --Notice faith is mentioned here as a fruit. One cannot exercise faith without the mind. Love is a self-sacrificing of oneself. An infant cannot do that. He is entirely selfish.

    What did Jesus say:
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: (Matthew 15:19)
    --He is speaking of the spirit.
     

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